For Shafique- Muhammad's Collective Punishment Of B. Qaynuqa

Topic locked
  • Reply
For shafique- Muhammad's collective punishment of B. Qaynuqa Sep 22, 2009
A quote from Maxime Rodinson, p173:

The Qaynuqa withdrew inside the fort which was their refuge. They probably believed that their friends and allies in Medina would intercede for them and that the matter would be settled with some indemnities on both sides. But Muhammad meant to make the most of the incident. He sent his private army to blockade the tower and prevent the Jews from taking in supplies of food. Several Medinan allies of the Qaynuqa abandoned them and took sides against them, loyalty to the cause taking precedence over their sworn word. The other Jewish tribes, ofr one reason or another, failed to intervene. Probably they, too, put their faith in mediation; and the various Jewish groups may well have had differences of their own. The blockade lasted for fifteen days before the defenders gave in. Muhammad wanted to put all of them to death; and this time Ibn Ubayy did make a strong move to intercede on behalf of his allies.


As with the destruction of Banu Nadir's orchards and the fields of the city of Taif for which the residents depended on for food, it seems to have been a regular practice for Muhammad to engage in collective punishment against civilians.

As always, I have no problem condemning Muhammad's actions as war crimes and I join any Muslim who also condemns them as war crimes, including shafique.

For some reason, however, I don't think I should hold my breath.

event horizon
UAE, Dubai Forums Lord of the posts
User avatar
Posts: 5503

  • Reply
Sep 22, 2009
Ah, yet another selective quote.

I have no issue in condemning acts against civilians, especially the killing of civilians - eg when the Israelis block aid to civilians, this is indeed to be condemned. Perhaps they also seek to justify their actions by believe that the Muslims did this to Qaynuqa a millenium and a half ago.

But I'm a bit at a loss here - is eh unaware what happens in military sieges?

Are you just a pacifist who is against all war (unlikely, as you seem to support Israeli actions) - or are you just unaware of what warfare was like in 6th/7th Century Arabia? (I thought you'd read Kennedy's book on the Great Arab Conquests and would have understood his conclusions)

Cheers,
Shafique
shafique
Dubai Shadow Wolf
User avatar
Posts: 13442

  • Reply
Sep 23, 2009
I disagree - the quote was provided in full and the part of Muhammad blockading the Jews from accessing their food for a long siege would be an example of a war crime. So would Muhammad's destruction of vineyards to force the civilian inhabitants of a city to surrender to a Muslim siege and the taking of women and children as captives and only returning (most) of the women and children back to their husbands and fathers after the men the Muslims fought against surrendered - although the men had to make a choice between their material possessions and their families, Muhammad only allowed them to keep one.
event horizon
UAE, Dubai Forums Lord of the posts
User avatar
Posts: 5503

  • Reply
Sep 23, 2009
eg when the Israelis block aid to civilians,.....But I'm a bit at a loss here - is eh unaware what happens in military sieges?


Cool. You view the blocking of aid as a war crime. So, was Muhammad's blocking of aid (food) a war crime or was it acceptable because this is what happens in military sieges (and therefore, you condone Israel's military siege of Gaza)?
event horizon
UAE, Dubai Forums Lord of the posts
User avatar
Posts: 5503

  • Reply
Sep 23, 2009
I agree that if Muhammad, pbuh, committed similar acts to the current Israeli actions, this would similarly be a crime against humanity. I similarly agree that if one takes only the extracts you are wont to quote, one can conclude that war crimes were committed by the early Muslims.

But I'm interested to hear your answer to the question: Do you condemn the Israeli crimes against humanity?

Cheers,
Shafique
shafique
Dubai Shadow Wolf
User avatar
Posts: 13442

  • Reply
Sep 24, 2009
Shafique, do you agree that preventing civilians from taking in supplies of food and then laying a complete siege of their encampment is a form of collective punishment?
event horizon
UAE, Dubai Forums Lord of the posts
User avatar
Posts: 5503

  • Reply
Sep 25, 2009
event horizon wrote:Shafique, do you agree that preventing civilians from taking in supplies of food and then laying a complete siege of their encampment is a form of collective punishment?


That is what the Israelis do, and yes I condemn this - as do the UN, Amnesty International et al.

Bombing of Dresden, Hiroshima, Nagasaki, Kabul, Gaza are similarly war crimes.

I agree you believe Muhammad's, pbuh, actions consitute war crimes - as surely does the Biblical accounts of Moses massacring entire villages, women, children and animals, after they were defeated. I totally agree that if these accounts are true, they are war crimes and would be totally condemned if they took place today.

The difference between us though, is that you refuse to condemn the contemporary and on-going war crimes of Israelis.

I suggest you look up the word hypocrisy.

Cheers,
Shafique
shafique
Dubai Shadow Wolf
User avatar
Posts: 13442

  • Reply
Sep 25, 2009
I suggest you look up the word hypocrisy.


Ah - don't know that word. Is it right next to 'pontificate'?

Anyways, I don't think I'm being hypocritical asking you if you believe that Muhammad's actions constitute as war crimes, am I?
event horizon
UAE, Dubai Forums Lord of the posts
User avatar
Posts: 5503

  • Reply
Sep 25, 2009
I think I've been very clear - Muhammad, pbuh, has not committed any war crimes - but has been accused of these by Orientalists and those who refuse to consider the whole evidence.

But I also concede that the facts won't change your mind and that you think I'm wrong to believe that the Quran is correct and the final testament.

I also find it very strange that you bring up your view of crimes that allegedly took place a millenium and a half ago whenever we bring up the actual crimes being committed by Israel today.

Sorry, 'strange' is probably not the right word - perhaps it should be intriguing.

Cheers,
Shafique
shafique
Dubai Shadow Wolf
User avatar
Posts: 13442

  • Reply
Sep 25, 2009
I also find it very strange that you bring up your view of crimes that allegedly took place a millenium and a half ago whenever we bring up the actual crimes being committed by Israel today.


Funny how that is. You're shocked that we're talking about Muhammad's war crimes in a thread about Muhammad's war crimes.

Anyways, still (patiently) waiting if you believe that preventing the Banu Qaynuqa tribe from receiving food is a war crime.
event horizon
UAE, Dubai Forums Lord of the posts
User avatar
Posts: 5503

  • Reply
Sep 25, 2009
What confused you about my answer?

Cheers,
Shafique
shafique
Dubai Shadow Wolf
User avatar
Posts: 13442

posting in Philosophy and Religion ForumsForum Rules

Return to Philosophy and Religion Forums