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kanelli wrote:and we have also discussed patriarchal and matriarchal societies and religions

what societies and religions? you only discussed one religion i didn't see any other religion in your posts.

Actually, I wasn't the only person posting in this thread or the only person discussing Islam. If it makes you feel better, I'll mention how I cringed when my Frisian friend (A follower of the Dutch Christian Reformed Church) got married and the pastor said "Do you promise to obey your husband." Gak! Okay, that isn't really the same thing as ironing breasts, cutting and sewing up women's parts, or shrowding oneself in cloth so as not to sexually titilate a man. Christianity is also a patriarchal religion. Lots of religions are. If a woman gets her period she is considered unclean and can't even enter the house of worship etc. Patriarchal societies and religions come up with all kinds of ways to subjugate women.

most of the stupidities are the result of ignorant ppl and societies who think they are being civilised and enlightened.

raidah wrote:most of the stupidities are the result of ignorant ppl and societies who think they are being civilised and enlightened.

I wonder why some societies might think they are being civilised and enlightened by supressing their women?

kanelli wrote:

raidah wrote:most of the stupidities are the result of ignorant ppl and societies who think they are being civilised and enlightened.

I wonder why some societies might think they are being civilised and enlightened by supressing their women?

because they r being ignorant, that is why.
we place religion above everything else (well, some societies) and categorize s.e.x as sin, taboo, etc. the best cocktail of being closed minded.

do you believe that there is any society that isn't supressing women?

raidah wrote:

kanelli wrote:

raidah wrote:most of the stupidities are the result of ignorant ppl and societies who think they are being civilised and enlightened.

I wonder why some societies might think they are being civilised and enlightened by supressing their women?

because they r being ignorant, that is why.
we place religion above everything else (well, some societies) and categorize s.e.x as sin, taboo, etc. the best cocktail of being closed minded.

Very true.

tdot wrote:do you believe that there is any society that isn't supressing women?

touche

tdot wrote:do you believe that there is any society that isn't supressing women?

Yes, and they are all patriarchal. Does that make it okay?

I would like to be educated since there is nothing better than knowledge. Name me one patriarchal society that isn't supressing women?

kanelli wrote:Even if Islam claims to treat women very well, the fact remains that the Quran says that women must cover themselves to hide their attributes from men who might take advantage. On the one hand there are good intentions behind that, but on the other hand it makes it acceptable for men to disrespect women who are not covered.

Well Kan, I think this is a misunderstanding between the culture and Koran. The Woman should be respected whether she is covered or not .. and that also goes on the man. in Koran you should respect everyone regardless what kind of religions or cultures they have. and the islamic history is so full of stories about such situations.

Now maybe you have seen an incident or you have got a feeling that the uncovered woman is not respected, but believe if such thing happened.. then its only and only because of the culture or that particular reason because people are not use to see wpomen uncovered.. and its quit odd for them to understand such thing if they dont have the background or the understanding of other cultures.

even in christianity or Judaism the women should be covered .. if u have a look from behind on a Nun or a muslim lady, you will not be able to tell who is who.

The woman is a precious Jewell .. this Jewel should be protected and away from theves. Males are like wolves who are waiting for the pray, once they have what they want they will walk out. thats why when guys are normally claming they are "not ready" to commitment,.. they wana keep playing around they way they want Whether they admit it or not.

thats why ladies... if a man comes to you, check whether he is H0rney or really interested in you. if he is, then he should be ready for a commitment. other wize in the majority of the cases, girls are getting dummped on the edge of the road alone (maybe with a baby to support by her own even) for the other wolves.

I think its enough for the muslims precisly and to the world to know that the Prophet him self was dying while his head was on his wife's thigh and he is last words for a man like the prophet for the world were:

Always keep good thoughts about women.
Be gentle with the crystals - referning to the women-.

hope this was clear

its strange who things came back to this topic..

We were some where else!

Nick81 wrote:

xibit wrote:

Nick81 wrote:
I already knew about female circumcision (better called female genital mutilation) but this was definitely news for me...

omg !!

damn female circumsicion, is that even physically possible !!
what the hell do they circumsize ?? i really wanna know.

where and why do they do it

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Female_circumcision

such act was done in some places and thats right...

but ...in Islam .. this is Taboo

The woman is a precious Jewell .. this Jewel should be protected and away from theves. Males are like wolves who are waiting for the pray, once they have what they want they will walk out

While I do agree a woman is precious she's not made of porcelain. This is exactly the mentality that lead to women being considered inferior to men. They can protect themselves and do NOT need men to live well in any society.

Nick81 wrote:

The woman is a precious Jewell .. this Jewel should be protected and away from theves. Males are like wolves who are waiting for the pray, once they have what they want they will walk out

While I do agree a woman is precious she's not made of porcelain. This is exactly the mentality that lead to women being considered inferior to men. They can protect themselves and do NOT need men to live well in any society.

which leads to men being insecure if they cant be the only ones to play the provider role in the family

raidah wrote:

Nick81 wrote:

The woman is a precious Jewell .. this Jewel should be protected and away from theves. Males are like wolves who are waiting for the pray, once they have what they want they will walk out

While I do agree a woman is precious she's not made of porcelain. This is exactly the mentality that lead to women being considered inferior to men. They can protect themselves and do NOT need men to live well in any society.

which leads to men being insecure if they cant be the only ones to play the provider role in the family

*hugs my little bunny*

kanelli wrote:

MaaaD wrote:No she is Israeli .. I blame the Mossad for this one.

I'm Scottish/Welsh Canadian Feminist Vegetarian Atheist Humanist.

May i add fabulous too

Corcovado wrote:

kanelli wrote:

MaaaD wrote:No she is Israeli .. I blame the Mossad for this one.

I'm Scottish/Welsh Canadian Feminist Vegetarian Atheist Humanist.

May i add fabulous too

Ditto darling!

The younger a girl develops, the more likely she is to have her bosom ironed -- 38 percent of girls developing breasts under the age of 11 had undergone the procedure.

The practice is most common in the Christian and animist South of the country, rather than in the Muslim North and Far North provinces, where only 10 percent of women are affected.

even 10% is too high, but enough said. yet it turns into talks about muslim culture. [/quote]

Nick81 wrote:

The woman is a precious Jewell .. this Jewel should be protected and away from theves. Males are like wolves who are waiting for the pray, once they have what they want they will walk out

While I do agree a woman is precious she's not made of porcelain. This is exactly the mentality that lead to women being considered inferior to men. They can protect themselves and do NOT need men to live well in any society.

Exactly Nick! Women can and do protect themselves, and they are certainly not inferior. S.e.xual abuse from family, friends or strangers happens to women all over the world, whether they shroud themselves in cloth or not.

Humans are biologically ingrained to be attracted to each other and mate for the purpose of propogating the species, just like any other animal on this planet. Just as men want to bed women, there are women who are equally interested in bedding men. Does that mean that men need protection from female "wolves"? Should men shroud themselves in cloth to protect them from women who find them s.e.xually attractive?

In cultures where women are allowed to dress as they please, there is far less harrassment on the street. The rape rates might be higher but those are because alcohol and mixed communication are involved on the dating scene, not because a woman is not covered in cloth from head to toe.

Shrouding myself from head to toe in black cloth would feel to me like people were trying to cover me up like I don't exist. It would feel odd to talk with people who can't even see my facial expressions. I enjoy the fact that I have studied, worked and lived in mixed gender groups and I don't ever feel like I need to hide my body to protect myself from men, even here in Dubai where leering at women is a sport for some groups of men.

kanelli wrote:

Nick81 wrote:

The woman is a precious Jewell .. this Jewel should be protected and away from theves. Males are like wolves who are waiting for the pray, once they have what they want they will walk out

While I do agree a woman is precious she's not made of porcelain. This is exactly the mentality that lead to women being considered inferior to men. They can protect themselves and do NOT need men to live well in any society.

Exactly Nick! Women can and do protect themselves, and they are certainly not inferior. S.e.xual abuse from family, friends or strangers happens to women all over the world, whether they shroud themselves in cloth or not.

Humans are biologically ingrained to be attracted to each other and mate for the purpose of propogating the species, just like any other animal on this planet. Just as men want to bed women, there are women who are equally interested in bedding men. Does that mean that men need protection from female "wolves"? Should men shroud themselves in cloth to protect them from women who find them s.e.xually attractive?

In cultures where women are allowed to dress as they please, there is far less harrassment on the street. The rape rates might be higher but those are because alcohol and mixed communication are involved on the dating scene, not because a woman is not covered in cloth from head to toe.

Shrouding myself from head to toe in black cloth would feel to me like people were trying to cover me up like I don't exist. It would feel odd to talk with people who can't even see my facial expressions. I enjoy the fact that I have studied, worked and lived in mixed gender groups and I don't ever feel like I need to hide my body to protect myself from men, even here in Dubai where leering at women is a sport for some groups of men.

Very well said K.

terranova wrote:

The younger a girl develops, the more likely she is to have her bosom ironed -- 38 percent of girls developing breasts under the age of 11 had undergone the procedure.

The practice is most common in the Christian and animist South of the country, rather than in the Muslim North and Far North provinces, where only 10 percent of women are affected.

even 10% is too high, but enough said. yet it turns into talks about muslim culture.

[/quote]

terranova

Once again for people can't seem to follow this thread. This topic is about breast ironing to protect girls from rape. Issues like female genital mutilation and women having to hide their entire body from men came into this thread because they are related to suppression of women in male dominated societies and religions. No one said anywhere that Islam is to blame for everything. Too many people get touchy if you mention the word "Islam". As was already stated, many religions are patriarchal, including Christianity, Judaism etc. There are Jewish women who wear scarves or wigs to cover their hair, and who wear longs skirts and stockings, and long blouses to cover their body. In some places, women cover their hair in a scarf when attending mass in a Catholic church. Nuns (and monks) wear conservative traditional dress. Some of this discussion has focused on Islam because the Quran calls for all Muslim women to cover themselves. Some people are challenging the notion that women are delicate and men are predators - so women need to cover up and protect their "modesty". This is related to patriarchal viewpoints that are relevant to this discussion thread.

Nick81 wrote:
While I do agree a woman is precious she's not made of porcelain. This is exactly the mentality that lead to women being considered inferior to men. They can protect themselves and do NOT need men to live well in any society.

I think you missed the point - crystals normally are used to resemble: pureness and transperancy .. when a ""crystal"" get cracked.. then no way one earth you can fix this crack.

Thats why you have to be very gentle with crystals not to cause any crack "by hurting them emotionally". So plz dont take it materialistically


The woman doesnt need someone to protect here!! well woman start saying that when they start finding them selves alone ... when their males start leaving them for a reason or for nothing.. just he is bored .. or what ever. but... yes.. she can take care of her self.. but would she choose that if she finds the right MAN .. i mean "The MAN". Well i dont believe so! i dont think that husbands are meant to be there for physical needs only!! are they??

Woman who say that woman can take care of them selves.... i say to them: YES woman can do that.. but ... would they like that.. would they Choose that?! normally such statments comes up when the woman is really hurt and she is feed up with all the a$$wholes around.. and i dont blame her at all in such situations.

touchy? hardy har har.

i can see all the talk we've been having about orthodox jewish men and their treatment of women, or perhaps the mormons allowing polygamy? this thread is positively deluged with objectivity.

stop being defensive and reflect a bit more on the double standards people treat muslims with.

kanelli wrote:
Shrouding myself from head to toe in black cloth would feel to me like people were trying to cover me up like I don't exist. It would feel odd to talk with people who can't even see my facial expressions. I enjoy the fact that I have studied, worked and lived in mixed gender groups and I don't ever feel like I need to hide my body to protect myself from men, even here in Dubai where leering at women is a sport for some groups of men.

i won't use a word like Shrouding for this case Kan .

No one says that the cover should be for the face and in black.. there is nothing in islam is like that. its the Emiratis Culture here. in ohter cultures.. women are covering them selves differently.. and decently..

terranova wrote:touchy? hardy har har.

i can see all the talk we've been having about orthodox jewish men and their treatment of women, or perhaps the mormons allowing polygamy? this thread is positively deluged with objectivity.

stop being defensive and reflect a bit more on the double standards people treat muslims with.

Well terranova, you are free to bring up any examples of other religions and to discuss your own views on the double standards that Muslims are faced with instead of just criticising that Islam is being discussed again.

Let's hear your thoughts. Don't forget, the central aim of this discussion is patriarchal societies and the suppression of women to accomodate men and their ideas of women.

terranova wrote:touchy? hardy har har.

i can see all the talk we've been having about orthodox jewish men and their treatment of women, or perhaps the mormons allowing polygamy? this thread is positively deluged with objectivity.

stop being defensive and reflect a bit more on the double standards people treat muslims with.

i forgot to add please

and no i won't point blame at other religions, i'm not an expert on any of those issues, and this is one "jihad" i'd rather not fight.

i just find it necessary to step in when i see people pushing the boundaries on what i see as legitimate criticism of my religion

Intimacy wrote:

Nick81 wrote:
While I do agree a woman is precious she's not made of porcelain. This is exactly the mentality that lead to women being considered inferior to men. They can protect themselves and do NOT need men to live well in any society.

I think you missed the point - crystals normally are used to resemble: pureness and transperancy .. when a ""crystal"" get cracked.. then no way one earth you can fix this crack.

Thats why you have to be very gentle with crystals not to cause any crack "by hurting them emotionally". So plz dont take it materialistically


The woman doesnt need someone to protect here!! well woman start saying that when they start finding them selves alone ... when their males start leaving them for a reason or for nothing.. just he is bored .. or what ever. but... yes.. she can take care of her self.. but would she choose that if she finds the right MAN .. i mean "The MAN". Well i dont believe so! i dont think that husbands are meant to be there for physical needs only!! are they??

Woman who say that woman can take care of them selves.... i say to them: YES woman can do that.. but ... would they like that.. would they Choose that?! normally such statments comes up when the woman is really hurt and she is feed up with all the a$$wholes around.. and i dont blame her at all in such situations.

So men can be impure and cracked, but their women have to be perfect?

There are men who fall for women and go to bed with them, but then the woman dumps him and breaks his heart. It is a stereotype that men use women for s.ex. because women can use men for s.ex just as easily.

Both men and women are capable of mentally, physically and s.e.xually abusing each other. The stereotype is that women are sugar and spice and everything nice and they need to be sheltered and protected, when really that isn't the case.

If men and women want to live together as a couple, then they are there to support and compliment each other's lives. Each person should have a chance to be dominant or submissive in some cases, depending on their own individual talents, strengths and weaknesses in certain matters or situations. It is really a disadvantage to women to be treated like naive children that the husband has the divine right to rule over for her own "protection".

terranova wrote:

terranova wrote:touchy? hardy har har.

i can see all the talk we've been having about orthodox jewish men and their treatment of women, or perhaps the mormons allowing polygamy? this thread is positively deluged with objectivity.

stop being defensive and reflect a bit more on the double standards people treat muslims with.

i forgot to add please

and no i won't point blame at other religions, i'm not an expert on any of those issues, and this is one "jihad" i'd rather not fight.

i just find it necessary to step in when i see people pushing the boundaries on what i see as legitimate criticism of my religion

fanatism is not the "privilege" of one religion or another.
stupidity also has nothing to do with religion. its ppl that make a society narrow minded, a religion fanatic and s.e.x taboo and sin. its ppl's ignorance that make smthing so spiritual like faith become quastionable, and smthing so natural as physical contact seem dirty.

terranova wrote:

terranova wrote:touchy? hardy har har.

i can see all the talk we've been having about orthodox jewish men and their treatment of women, or perhaps the mormons allowing polygamy? this thread is positively deluged with objectivity.

stop being defensive and reflect a bit more on the double standards people treat muslims with.

i forgot to add please

and no i won't point blame at other religions, i'm not an expert on any of those issues, and this is one "jihad" i'd rather not fight.

i just find it necessary to step in when i see people pushing the boundaries on what i see as legitimate criticism of my religion

So terranova, you ARE being touchy about your religion. Just to let you know, I am an atheist so I criticise all religion.

Is Islam a patriarchal religion or not? If you can prove to me that it isn't, then I won't discuss it in this relevant thread, along with the other patriarchal religions I have already brought up.

Intimacy, I know that the face doesn't have to be covered, but Islam is practiced in many different ways and there are women who cover their faces, hands and feet as well so that no skin is exposed at all. If Muslim and Orthodox Jewish women want to cover their body and hair and leave only their face and hands out, that is their choice, but I find it extreme. What kind of god makes men's bodies acceptable, but women's bodies taboo?