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debian wrote:If you don't want people to look then why are you showing

Either you're cynical or what......

Dubaidude007 wrote:
As far as the problem of inappropriate behaviour goes, it is like many of you pointed out, excrabated because of the gender bias against women in this part of the world. Somehow, with everything else factored in, men see nothing wrong with subjecting women to unwanted sexual advances. This is not the case in societies that implament more equality of the genders as part of their social strata.

Yes, there's a real correlation between society and how it treats its people male and female. When society itself looks upon their womenfolk with low regards and treated unfairly,to the point of being bias in every sense of the word; women are easy prey to abuse of all sort whether at home, work and with in the society. Not suprisingly this societies do tend to hide this treatment by regarding this things as social taboos, a double joepardy for their womenfolk.

reviewer wrote:
Yes, there's a real correlation between society and how it treats its people male and female. When society itself looks upon their womenfolk with low regards and treated unfairly,to the point of being bias in every sense of the word; women are easy prey to abuse of all sort whether at home, work and with in the society. Not suprisingly this societies do tend to hide this treatment by regarding this things as social taboos, a double joepardy for their womenfolk.

Dark Knight and Kanelli have put their fingers on the issue and I could not do better.

I do also agree with 'reviewer' that societies who treat women with little respect are more prone to abuse - but I suspect he was viewing 'liberal' societies of Europe and US as societies which afford women more respect than 'conservative' societies of the East.

I would say that Kanelli's worry about the trend of increasing s.e.xualisation in the 'liberal' countries is a testament to the low regard women are regarded - to be viewed as an object that can be used to sell cars or as an object whose objective is to provide pleasure to on-lookers is not treating women with respect.

It is a common misconception from non-Muslims and non-Occidentals [Edit - I really meant non-Oriental] that women are oppressed when there is segregation by gender and modest dress codes. At the extremes, perhaps, but by and large it is a reflection of the respect and honour that is given to the other gender and the protectiveness that society feels stable nuclear families deserve - celebrating the male and female forms within a loving marriage and not on the street or in casual relationships.

Just a different perspective I thought I'd share.

Cheers,
Shafique

Nicely put Shaf...

Interestingly, Dubai Municipality have instigated a team tasked with visiting all the malls in Dubai and removing any images or window decoration that is deemed to be outside the moral and cultural mores of the UAE.

In the mall by my office, there are some highly provocative images in poster form on the walls advertising a lingerie shop in the centre. The window display in that store not only shows the actual product on a mannequin, but has large images of a very s.e.x.y girl, obviously provided by the manufacturer in the US.

Don't get me wrong, I am not averse to looking at a beautiful scantily clad girl and this might be acceptable in London or Paris, however I do feel it goes against the grain here in a Muslim environment. I expect these images to be removed in the very near future.



Knight

I guess it could be viewed as a lack of respect, but the women themselves are happy party to it - buying up the skimpy clothes and falling into the images in the media. Of course a woman feels good if she is desired. My personal opinion is that I only want my husband to desire me. Many other women get an ego boost from attracting other men. It is their personal choice, but in my view having one's own husband's attention is most rewarding. Who cares about Joe Shmoe on the street.

I have to say that I perceive that I am always respected (in North America and Europe), although I don't wear skimpy clothes, and would miss a mixed-gender environment. I wouldn't do well being kept away with only fellow women-folk, not after making friends with men and enjoying the differences men bring to a friendship.

Vive la difference!



Knight

Dubai Knight wrote:Nicely put Shaf...

Interestingly, Dubai Municipality have instigated a team tasked with visiting all the malls in Dubai and removing any images or window decoration that is deemed to be outside the moral and cultural mores of the UAE.

In the mall by my office, there are some highly provocative images in poster form on the walls advertising a lingerie shop in the centre. The window display in that store not only shows the actual product on a mannequin, but has large images of a very s.e.x.y girl, obviously provided by the manufacturer in the US.

Don't get me wrong, I am not averse to looking at a beautiful scantily clad girl and this might be acceptable in London or Paris, however I do feel it goes against the grain here in a Muslim environment. I expect these images to be removed in the very near future.



Knight

The funny part is the Dubai Motorshow was a great display of real-life skin. I was a bit "offended" by all the displayed women in a Muslim country, even though some would consider me a liberal.

My 11 year old daughter was in the school Christmas concert which featured a medley of song, music and dance.

The seniors in her school did a number of dance routines and in one girls who looked around 13 to 15 (clearly not yet women, but post-puberty) were dressed in red silk pyjama bottoms and clingy white vests or t-shirts. They danced to 'all I want for Christmas is you' and kept striking s.e.xy poses.

I took my in-laws with me and it just was cringeingly embarrassing for us - but the majority of other parents were clapping and enjoying the show. My in-laws (from Mauritius) were complimentary of the over-all production - but they did express surprise to see the show of flesh on display in the UAE (and to be honest I would have been surprised to see this in a school in the UK).

Alas, it is a sign of the times.

Cheers,
Shafique

We can all try to understand each other´s cultures and backgrounds, which is great! Still I believe there is a lot of hypocricy in Dubai going on concerning s.e.x. and women among other things. Just one example. A meet at WTC organized by locals was catered (and I mean only food and drinks) by scarcely dressed women (even according to westerns standards). Once outside they started complaining about how women dress on the street. This is just one example, I have many more...as everyone else here I am sure.
I have real problems trying to understand this sheer hypocricy. And I encounter this kind of hypocricy here in Dubai more than anywhere else in the world...

Flying Dutchman wrote:I have real problems trying to understand this sheer hypocricy. And I encounter this kind of hypocricy here in Dubai more than anywhere else in the world...

Hypocrisy is really rife here, their self-righteousness on one hand yet with open hands indulges in debauchery. Its smack of arrogance.

reviewer wrote:

Flying Dutchman wrote:I have real problems trying to understand this sheer hypocricy. And I encounter this kind of hypocricy here in Dubai more than anywhere else in the world...

Hypocrisy is really rife here, their self-righteousness on one hand yet with open hands indulges in debauchery. Its smack of arrogance.

Its not so much 'arrogance' as 'face'. Its very common in Saudi Arabia that a man must appear to be piously Islamic in all ways in front of his peers, however will then travel outside the Kingdom and behave in ways that would instigate a custodial prison sentence in his own country.

"What happens in Vegas...stays in Vegas."

This is also quite common for the young ladies of Saudi also and I am afraid that repression of the normal human desires and weaknesses is to blame. If you make certain things 'forbidden fruit' then the desire to taste from that tree becomes an irresistable urge.

Its like having a big red button on the wall that says in bold letters "Do not press!"

Someone will.
Just to see what happens.



Knight

Dubai Knight wrote:
Its not so much 'arrogance' as 'face'. Its very common in Saudi Arabia that a man must appear to be piously Islamic in all ways in front of his peers, however will then travel outside the Kingdom and behave in ways that would instigate a custodial prison sentence in his own country.

Well, I agree with you totally, their "holy than thou" attitude is outright arrogance for me.

Dubai Knight wrote:"What happens in Vegas...stays in Vegas."

This is also quite common for the young ladies of Saudi also and I am afraid that repression of the normal human desires and weaknesses is to blame. If you make certain things 'forbidden fruit' then the desire to taste from that tree becomes an irresistable urge.

Its like having a big red button on the wall that says in bold letters "Do not press!"

Someone will.
Just to see what happens.



Knight

Mind you its the society that tolerates such behavior and religion itself has nothing to do with it, yet always been hijacked by certain people for their own self preservation.

debian wrote:If you don't want people to look then why are you showing

Come on now, they look anyway, no matter what you wear. Hey, perhaps the men should have a bag or sheet draped over their heads all the time so that we women won't have to see them staring.

kanelli wrote:

debian wrote:If you don't want people to look then why are you showing

Come on now, they look anyway, no matter what you wear. Hey, perhaps the men should have a bag or sheet draped over their heads all the time so that we women won't have to see them staring.

Come on now - there is a world of difference between a nun in a habit and a lady in a mini skirt and boob tube, both would not be stared at.

And you ladies also know that hair style and make up can transform one's appearance and will radically change the attention one draws.

That said, I agree that dress is not the only factor - one can be all covered up and still draw attention - it is however an important factor in itself, all other things being equal, dressing modestly will draw less 'unwanted' attention.

Cheers,
Shafique

shafique wrote:

kanelli wrote:

debian wrote:If you don't want people to look then why are you showing

Come on now, they look anyway, no matter what you wear. Hey, perhaps the men should have a bag or sheet draped over their heads all the time so that we women won't have to see them staring.

Come on now - there is a world of difference between a nun in a habit and a lady in a mini skirt and boob tube, both would not be stared at.

And you ladies also know that hair style and make up can transform one's appearance and will radically change the attention one draws.

That said, I agree that dress is not the only factor - one can be all covered up and still draw attention - it is however an important factor in itself, all other things being equal, dressing modestly will draw less 'unwanted' attention.

Cheers,
Shafique

Come on now dressing modestly will not surely draw less attention, take the case of men in segregated societies though their womenfolk are all covered up they still draw attention and men do stares as if the women wears nothing. As pointed out earlier, its sheer hypocrisy of the men to blame the opposite sex for their uncalled stares and sexual overtures.

Dressing modestly will definitely draw less attention than dressing with your tits hanging out. This works in all countries of the world.

reviewer wrote:
Come on now dressing modestly will not surely draw less attention, take the case of men in segregated societies though their womenfolk are all covered up they still draw attention and men do stares as if the women wears nothing. As pointed out earlier, its sheer hypocrisy of the men to blame the opposite love for their uncalled stares and sexual overtures.

I'm not blaming women, I thought I was stating the obvious that dressing modestly will attract fewer unwelcome stares.

If you are right that a woman's appearance isn't important - then someone should tell the women not to bother with make up, hair dos etc

Cheers,
Shafique

I think everyone should stop wearing clothes.. n then people will get used to seeing naked bodies and realize.. eeww. 75% are not really that hot as they used to think..

St.Lucifer wrote:I think everyone should stop wearing clothes.. n then people will get used to seeing naked bodies and realize.. eeww. 75% are not really that hot as they used to think..

Do you think anyone is any doubt what a naked female body looks like? Or are you advocating that everyone sees how 'un-normal' the bodies of models etc are?

shafique wrote:

reviewer wrote:
Come on now dressing modestly will not surely draw less attention, take the case of men in segregated societies though their womenfolk are all covered up they still draw attention and men do stares as if the women wears nothing. As pointed out earlier, its sheer hypocrisy of the men to blame the opposite love for their uncalled stares and sexual overtures.

I'm not blaming women, I thought I was stating the obvious that dressing modestly will attract fewer unwelcome stares.

If you are right that a woman's appearance isn't important - then someone should tell the women not to bother with make up, hair dos etc

Cheers,
Shafique

What I'm saying is dressing modestly will not stop men from staring as has been happening and will continue to happen espcecially in the gulf. Case in point, try walking inside a mall where local women are dress in burqa yet being stared at and even given sexual overtones by their local men.

I'm not putting the blame to either the men or the women, I think society as a whole is to be blame.

reviewer wrote:

shafique wrote:

reviewer wrote:
Come on now dressing modestly will not surely draw less attention, take the case of men in segregated societies though their womenfolk are all covered up they still draw attention and men do stares as if the women wears nothing. As pointed out earlier, its sheer hypocrisy of the men to blame the opposite love for their uncalled stares and sexual overtures.

I'm not blaming women, I thought I was stating the obvious that dressing modestly will attract fewer unwelcome stares.

If you are right that a woman's appearance isn't important - then someone should tell the women not to bother with make up, hair dos etc

Cheers,
Shafique

What I'm saying is dressing modestly will not stop men from staring as has been happening and will continue to happen espcecially in the gulf. Case in point, try walking inside a mall where local women are dress in burqa yet being stared at and even given sexual overtones by their local men.

You are now addressing a totally different issue. Local men showing interest in local girls is the first step towards a marriage proposal involving parents.

As Ian said, the first step to reducing stares is to cover up. Don't want attention? Don't dress up. White women will get stares no matter what they wear of course, but then, they can take steps to reduce what's exposed, assuming the stares bug them TOO much. Take it as a non-criminal aspect of Dubai, with high rents and Salik. Hardly any men take the step towards touching and making themselves a criminal.

The staring is certainly a huge annoyance, but the rules brought about due to whining women means I cannot take a walk on the beach with a camera any more, without being almost arrested.

gtmash wrote:

reviewer wrote:

shafique wrote:

reviewer wrote:
Come on now dressing modestly will not surely draw less attention, take the case of men in segregated societies though their womenfolk are all covered up they still draw attention and men do stares as if the women wears nothing. As pointed out earlier, its sheer hypocrisy of the men to blame the opposite love for their uncalled stares and sexual overtures.

I'm not blaming women, I thought I was stating the obvious that dressing modestly will attract fewer unwelcome stares.

If you are right that a woman's appearance isn't important - then someone should tell the women not to bother with make up, hair dos etc

Cheers,
Shafique

What I'm saying is dressing modestly will not stop men from staring as has been happening and will continue to happen espcecially in the gulf. Case in point, try walking inside a mall where local women are dress in burqa yet being stared at and even given sexual overtones by their local men.

You are now addressing a totally different issue. Local men showing interest in local girls is the first step towards a marriage proposal involving parents.

Excuse me; men following women like pack of wolves, blurting profanities, showing unwanted attention, you called this first step towards a marriage proposal involving parents. Wake up mate.

What I said;if you really understood what you read, is dressing up or dressing modestly is not always a solution and even if it does; it does not necessarily apply to all societies.

Different societies need different solution and approach.

reviewer wrote:

gtmash wrote:

reviewer wrote:

shafique wrote:

reviewer wrote:
Come on now dressing modestly will not surely draw less attention, take the case of men in segregated societies though their womenfolk are all covered up they still draw attention and men do stares as if the women wears nothing. As pointed out earlier, its sheer hypocrisy of the men to blame the opposite love for their uncalled stares and sexual overtures.

I'm not blaming women, I thought I was stating the obvious that dressing modestly will attract fewer unwelcome stares.

If you are right that a woman's appearance isn't important - then someone should tell the women not to bother with make up, hair dos etc

Cheers,
Shafique

What I'm saying is dressing modestly will not stop men from staring as has been happening and will continue to happen espcecially in the gulf. Case in point, try walking inside a mall where local women are dress in burqa yet being stared at and even given sexual overtones by their local men.

You are now addressing a totally different issue. Local men showing interest in local girls is the first step towards a marriage proposal involving parents.

Excuse me; men following women like pack of wolves, blurting profanities, showing unwanted attention, you called this first step towards a marriage proposal involving parents. Wake up mate.

What I said;if you really understood what you read, is dressing up or dressing modestly is not always a solution and even if it does; it does not necessarily apply to all societies.

Different societies need different solution and approach.

I get the feeling you roam the seediest parts of Dubai, outside bars or something. I've never seen local guys blatantly harrassing local women in my 25 years here. There is the occassional case in the papers, but it is not as rampant as you make it seem.

Its not guys harrassing local women, but local guys and others harrassing any women.

OK mostly is just intensive staring, which is unacceptable in the western world and would normally invite an invitation to sample hospital food from the young lady in question's boyfriend or husband.

A western woman on her own is open to more intrusive harrassment. I have a Polish architect friend who is particularly attractive and was working here on assignment. She got very arsey with me when I insisted I accompany her at night to visit Naif area and the souks.

In the end, I let her go on her own. It took 10 minutes for the phone to ring and her to ask me to rescue her! She attracted a crowd of patans and labourers who would not let her pass and were making lewd suggestions as they thought she was a hooker working in the local hotel, even though she was dressed in trousers and a business suit.

It makes not difference what a girl wears if she is attractive and in the wrong place at the wrong time.



Knight

Well, I notice that I don't get leered at much any more when I have the baby with me. Thankfully they are staring at the cute baby most of the time. There you go ladies, just bring a kid along and you'll get more respect.

kanelli wrote:Well, I notice that I don't get leered at much any more when I have the baby with me. Thankfully they are staring at the cute baby most of the time. There you go ladies, just bring a kid along and you'll get more respect.

I am told I am a complete child sometimes by some people, so I am available for hire at a very resonable fee!



Knight

Dubai Knight wrote:

kanelli wrote:Well, I notice that I don't get leered at much any more when I have the baby with me. Thankfully they are staring at the cute baby most of the time. There you go ladies, just bring a kid along and you'll get more respect.

I am told I am a complete child sometimes by some people, so I am available for hire at a very resonable fee!



Knight

Thats the most original pick-up line that I have heard in a while

Dubai Knight wrote:

kanelli wrote:Well, I notice that I don't get leered at much any more when I have the baby with me. Thankfully they are staring at the cute baby most of the time. There you go ladies, just bring a kid along and you'll get more respect.

I am told I am a complete child sometimes by some people, so I am available for hire at a very resonable fee!



Knight

hahha..but wouldnt it add fuel to fire.. u may attract more onlookers..




[picture clicked couple of days back.]

gtmash wrote:I get the feeling you roam the seediest parts of Dubai, outside bars or something. I've never seen local guys blatantly harrassing local women in my 25 years here. There is the occassional case in the papers, but it is not as rampant as you make it seem.

So what have you been doing for the last 25 yrs....stuck on your own closet.Try to take off of your sunglasses maybe you'll see much better, for you to see what life is all about and your apethetic attitude seems very real to me. One does not need to go to seedy places to see those kind of attitude, only need to be aware of what's happening around.

Do you think these men will harass women speaking in english or your mother tongue for you to understand whats going on...