Forced mariage stoped by Australian court

Flying_Dutchman

Marriageable age was puberty in Arabia - and that applied to Jews, pagans and Muslims. The evidence regarding puberty and intellectual maturity is in the video - and referenced.

Must have missed it. Can you mark where it speaks of sexual/marriage age in 7th century non-Muslim Arabia?

shafique

The scientific paper is introduced at 8 min, the section of age of consent is around 13.40 and gives the age of consent throughout ages - being as low as 7.

Marriage being usual at puberty (marriage or consummation of a marriage will be at least above age of consent).

(Kanelli - see around 15.30 for 'silence is consent' explanation)

As for evidence of Arabian practice at the time (Jewish and otherwise) here are some references:

Marriage at the early years of puberty was acceptable in 7th century Arabia as it was the social norm in all Semitic cultures from the Israelites to the Arabs and all nations in between. According to the Talmud which the Jews regard as their “oral Torah”, Sanhedrin 76b clearly states that it is preferable that a woman be married when she has her first menses, and in Ketuvot 6a there are rules regarding sexual intercourse with girls who have not yet menstruated. This is further collaborated when Jim West, ThD, a Baptist minister, observes the following tradition of the Israelites:

The wife was to be taken from within the larger family circle (usually at the outset of puberty or around the age of 13) in order to maintain the purity of the family line.4

Puberty has always been a symbol of adulthood throughout history.

Puberty is defined as the age or period at which a person is first capable of sexual reproduction, in other eras of history, a rite or celebration of this landmark event was a part of the culture.5

The renowned sexologists, R.E.L. Masters and Allan Edwards, in their study of Afro-Asian sexual expression states the following

Today, in many parts of North Africa, Arabia, and India, girls are wedded and bedded between the ages of five and nine; and no self-respecting female remains unmarried beyond the age of puberty.6

Were There Any Objections to the Marriage of the Prophet(P) to `Aishah(R)?

The answer to this is no. There are absolutely no records from Muslim, secular, or any other historical sources which even implicitly display anything other than utter joy from all parties involved over this marriage. Nabia Abbott describes the marriage of `Aishah(R) to the Prophet(P) as follows.

In no version is there any comment made on the disparity of the ages between Mohammed and Aishah or on the tender age of the bride who, at the most, could not have been over ten years old and who was still much enamoured with her play.7

Even the well-known critical Orientalist, W. Montgomery Watt, said the following about the Prophet’s moral character:

From the standpoint of Muhammad’s time, then, the allegations of treachery and sensuality cannot be maintained. His contemporaries did not find him morally defective in any way. On the contrary, some of the acts criticized by the modern Westerner show that Muhammad’s standards were higher than those of his time.8

Aside from the fact that no one was displeased with him or his actions, he was a paramount example of moral character in his society and time. Therefore, to judge the Prophet’s morality based on the standards of our society and culture today is not only absurd, but also unfair.

http://www.bismikaallahuma.org/archives/2005/the-young-marriage-of-aishah/

Cheers,
Shafique

Flying_Dutchman

The scientific paper is introduced at 8 min, the section of age of consent is around 13.40 and gives the age of consent throughout ages - being as low as 7.

Nowhere is it mentioned that it was considered normal in 7th non-Muslim Arabia for a 50+ man to have se.x with a 9 year old. You must have misunderstood the question a few times already while dancing around the embarassing issue:

Any proof, that in non-Muslim culture in the 7th century Arabian Peninsula it was considered ok for a 50+ man to have se.x with a 9 year old?

Up until now, I have seen none. I'll take it pedophilia was introduced by Muhammed in Arabia.

shafique

FD, I was quite precise in my statement:

Marriageable age was puberty in Arabia - and that applied to Jews, pagans and Muslims.

This is a statement, and I don't say that this fact is directly in the video. It is directly in the references I've given you above - I am therefore stating a fact.

The next sentence is precise too:

The evidence regarding puberty and intellectual maturity is in the video - and referenced.

This is in the video - stating when puberty and intellectual maturity takes place.

You now have evidence for my first statement, and the video reference for the second sentence.

Happy? I thought it was clear what I wrote - but I can see why you may have thought I said the video contained the information about marriage puberty in Arabia (it speaks of age of consent etc, but not Arabia specifically.. that is in my refs above).

Let me help you out by isolating the bit of info you are asking about:

Marriage at the early years of puberty was acceptable in 7th century Arabia as it was the social norm in all Semitic cultures from the Israelites to the Arabs and all nations in between. According to the Talmud which the Jews regard as their “oral Torah”, Sanhedrin 76b clearly states that it is preferable that a woman be married when she has her first menses, and in Ketuvot 6a there are rules regarding sexual intercourse with girls who have not yet menstruated.

Arabia, 7th century, marriage, early years after puberty. Can't be clearer.

'the social norm'

i.e. your theory is not correct.

Cheers,
Shafique

Flying_Dutchman

I still donot see any reference where it was thought ok for a 50+ man to have se.x with a 9 year old in non-Muslim 7th century Arabia. Muhammed must have been the for runner of pedophilia.

shafique

Did you read the references?

Is your confusion the fact that the references are about marriage between women past puberty and men, and the fact that Aisha was mature at the time of the marriage?

Or is it that quote from a historian who says:

From the standpoint of Muhammad’s time, then, the allegations of treachery and sensuality cannot be maintained. His contemporaries did not find him morally defective in any way. On the contrary, some of the acts criticized by the modern Westerner show that Muhammad’s standards were higher than those of his time.8

'His contemporaries did not find him morally defective in any way'. That doesn't fit with your theory now, does it!

But why let facts get in the way of a belief, eh? 😉

Cheers,
Shafique

Flying_Dutchman

Is your confusion the fact that the references are about marriage between women past puberty and men, and the fact that Aisha was mature at the time of the marriage?

My 'confusion' is that somebody can really think that a 50+ man deflowering a 9 year old, is morally correct and not harmfull to the 9 year old.

shafique

I happen to agree with the experts who have looked into the matter and concluded that your view is not appropriate.

From the standpoint of Muhammad’s time, then, the allegations of treachery and sensuality cannot be maintained. His contemporaries did not find him morally defective in any way.

You obviously don't agree and want to maintain the 'allegations' - but on the point on whether his contemporaries thought it morally defective - the historian Watt is quite clear.

That's what I call evidence.

Cheers,
Shafique

herve

Watch this video, al shafique sounds exactly like Anjem Choudary, same arguments, same religion.
We see where are his values, not only al shafique supports Hamas but also he defends Anjem Choudari.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B7bAjtYR3Xc

kanelli

FD, there is no mention of age gap between bride and groom, but there are rules that the bride and groom have to have reached s.exual and mental maturity. They likely thought that a 53 year old and 9 year old were equal if they both fit that criteria, but I would disagree.

event_horizon

and that applied to Jews, pagans and Muslims. The evidence regarding puberty and intellectual maturity is in the video - and referenced.

You embarrass yourself when you rely on missionary websites for your arguments. Jewish girls were typically married between fourteen and eighteen. I suggest you read actual scholarly materials on the subject instead of relying on cherry picked quotes from dot com websites.

As for evidence of Arabian practice at the time (Jewish and otherwise) here are some references:

Your article hardly provides evidence on the marriageable age of females in Arabia. Besides a quote from a Baptist minister - that is irrelevant to Arabia - there's no actual evidence presented.

Let me help you out by isolating the bit of info you are asking about:

Let me help you out, your paragraph's claims on marriageable age in Arabia are unreferenced and conjecture.

'His contemporaries did not find him morally defective in any way'. That doesn't fit with your theory now, does it!

Is this seriously your argument for when the marriageable age of females in Arabia is or that it was the norm for a 53 year old man to have s.e.xual relations with a nine year old?

shafique

herve, herve, herve... when will you learn? 🙄

In this thread you were certain a hoax was real, insisting several times that it was true AFTER it was shown to you it was a complete fabrication.

Now you are quoting the joker Anjem Choudry as if he knew what he was talking about. You have no excuse - Anjem has been exposed for what he is on this forum many times (he's our equivalent of the Westboro Baptist Church - except they have more credibility than he does - they actually have a church!)

Here's a the links to the latest thread about Anjem:
dubai-chat/andy-choudary-not-taken-seriously-t47385.html#p386783

Despite eh's denials - the fact still remains, Islam does not condone forced marriages - and consummating a marriage when the lady is mentally and physically mature is not paedophillia.

It is interesting to contrast the conclusion of Watt (someone critical of Islam) on the subject, with the loon desperation to avoid the evidence. Watt concludes:

From the standpoint of Muhammad’s time, then, the allegations of treachery and sensuality cannot be maintained. His contemporaries did not find him morally defective in any way. On the contrary, some of the acts criticized by the modern Westerner show that Muhammad’s standards were higher than those of his time.

We have to choose whether to agree with his conclusion or the loon version. I choose the Orientalist, anti-Islam historian's conclusion - as it is based on evidence, and on this he is right. I disagree with some of his other interpretations of historical events - but he's just reporting the facts that are there for all to read.

Cheers,
Shafique

herve

Pedophilia is permitted under Islamic law. This practice is sanctioned by both the Qur'an and the Hadith. In the Qur'an we find it in verse 65:4, where marrying and having sex with pre-pubescent girls is permitted after a 3 months time. Muhammad himself has been recorded by authentic Islamic sources explaining the meaning of this verse as "those who never had menses", their prescribed period is three months before puberty. It is the Islamic texts themselves which hold the power, and Islamic scholars in the modern era still agree that marrying and having sex with pre-pubescent girls is permitted. For example; the influential Muslim scholar and thinker Syed Abul A'ala Maududi (1903 - 1979) commented on verse 65:4 and those who attempt to deny scripture: "....making mention of the waiting-period for the girls who have not yet menstruated, clearly proves that it is not only permissible to give away the girl in marriage at this age but it is also permissible for the husband to consummate marriage with her. Now, obviously no Muslim has the right to forbid a thing which the Quran has held as permissible.

Because of its many endorsements within Islam, pedophilic marriages are common practice in many Islamic countries, and Islamic authorities are left powerless:

Because this happened to the Prophet, we cannot tell people that it is prohibited to marry at an early age.
Sheikh Hamoud Hashim al-Tharihi

In conclusion, the 3 months period is obviously a pregnancy observation period, and if there is a waiting time of three months for a pre pubescent girl before she can get married or have $ex, it means obviously that she could have $ex before. It is an indisputable proof that islam allows $ex with youn girls.

Flying_Dutchman

I am thinking about the introduction of a Muslim translator. One entry will be:

child marriage = pedophilia

Another one will be:

justice = sharia law

shafique

Loons and their theories! 🙄

Compare and contrast with the conclusion of a historian and the wild theory that Islam condones paedophillia.

The problem for herve is that God says in the Quran (and the references are in the video), that forced marriages are not allowed. The evidence is also that historically, and today, marriages are only consummated after puberty - so again, Islam does not condone paedophillia.

Facts not hype.

Herve, you were convinced that the internet hoax was real:

You repeat, you repeat, like a parrot, because you are desperate.
It was no hoax, it was real, muslims DO marry little girls:

But it seems if I present you the evidence often enough, you realise the truth and accept it. I hope it doesn't take as many repetitions of the facts to get you to realise your latest error.

Cheers,
Shafique

herve

It is simple al shafique, instead of repeating always the same thing like a parrot: show me where in Sharia law pedophilia is sanctionned.
You do understand the challenge, if it is not sanctioned then it is not against the law, and therefore it is condoned.

shafique

Any s.ex outside of marriage is against Islam. God is clear about that.

In Iran, paedophillia is explicitly a crime - and this is Sharia law.

Elsewhere any paedophile will be punished for breaking the rules on s.ex outside of marriage.

I'm not sure why you are still confused herve. The Quran talks of a marriageable age (reference in video), and Islamic law and practice is that the parties must be mature (se.xually and intellectually) when marriage is consummated.

Just imagining that Islam allows paedophillia seems to be a particular loon delusion. You were adamanat that the hoax was true.. but with repetition it seems you have now discovered you were wrong. How long will it take this time?

Cheers,
Shafique

Bethsmum

the fact still remains, Islam does not condone forced marriages

I'm a big fan of Alex Crawford who reports from the middle east, mainly, for Sky news.
Sky is advertising a programme she has done about Afghanistan where a 12 year old girl was so desperate to get away from her forced marriage that she poured petrol over her legs and set fire to them in a cry for help.

I found this short piece that Alex Crawford did about Afghanistan's womans prison. She says the women are there because they have broken strict Islamic laws. She talks about two young girls who are there because they objected to their violent forced marriages to older men. One young girl was married off to a 65 year old man who raped and beat her and after giving birth to four children, ran away. She has been told she will stay in prison until she agrees to go back to her husband.
The other 18 year old girl has been disowned by her family and has agreed to return to her forced marriage in sheer desperation.

So, if forced marriages are against Islamic law, then why are these girls in prison?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Djpq7lY4skk

shafique

The issue of some tribal cultures carrying out unIslamic practices was brought up quite early in this thread.

Indeed, there are Muslim organisations at the forefront of tackling these issues - and I'm sure that all those who are really interested in stopping the practice (rather than fantasising that Islam condones these crimes) will take on board the fact the Islamic rulings on the matter (that forced marriages not allowed).

Cheers,
Shafique

Bethsmum

Surely if forced marriages were not condonned then one wouldn't be jailed for objecting to them?

Seems simple enough to me.

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