Logic and Religion/Faith

shafique

You brought up the issue of menstruating women.

What is your logic for ignoring what God says in the Bible about these women? When did God change His mind, according to Christians?

Simple questions about your logic.

(We understand your desire to NOT address your Biblical confusion and wish to somehow argue Muslims should be as illogical as you, but be fair - we're not THAT stupid)

Cheers,
Shafique

event_horizon

When did God change His mind, according to Christians?

About what? That they shouldn't enter the tent of Moses if they're menstruating?

Go ahead and remind them about that then.

Here we're discussing the Islamic belief that menstruating Muslim women are a) prohibited from touching the Koran, b) praying and c) reciting passages from the Koran.

I'm waiting for your logical explanation regarding this Islamic belief.

shafique

Yes, when did God change His mind that menstruating women were unclean and should be segregated for 7 days - according to the Bible.

Give us your logic behind your view, or confirm that you believe God hasn't changed His mind and that you do believe Leviticus 15:

19: And if a woman have an issue, and her issue in her flesh be blood, she shall be put apart seven days: and whosoever toucheth her shall be unclean until the even.
20: And every thing that she lieth upon in her separation shall be unclean: every thing also that she sitteth upon shall be unclean.
21: And whosoever toucheth her bed shall wash his clothes, and bathe himself in water, and be unclean until the even.
22: And whosoever toucheth any thing that she sat upon shall wash his clothes, and bathe himself in water, and be unclean until the even.

Do you have to wash yourself if you touch anything a mensturating woman has sat on?

Please explain your logic - as you brought up menstruating women in this thread.

Cheers,
Shafique

event_horizon

That they're prohibited from the tent of Moses? Been there, discussed that.

Now, why are menstruating women prohibited from praying and reciting verses of the Koran in Islam.

I hope you're not attempting a 'what-aboutery' to justify your illogical beliefs.

shafique

Do you have a different version of the Bible from everyone else?

I simply asked whether you consider yourself unclean if you touch a chair that a menstrating woman has used. (And how would you know?)

If not, when did God change His mind and say that Lev 15.22 above does not apply to you?

I am very interested in your logic. (I'm a bit puzzled about what the tent of Moses has to do with this Biblical verse - we'll just file that away as another rogue belief of yours).

Cheers,
Shafique

event_horizon

I don't believe menstruating women should be prohibited from praying/reciting verses from their holy book.

I consider that illogical.

Hope that helps.

Now, what's your opinion on prohibiting menstruating women from praying/reciting verses from a holy book?

shafique

Why are you avoiding the Bible again?

You brought up menstruating women, so it is logical to look at the earlier scripture to see what God says about Mensturating women. Do you, or do you not, consider yourself unclean if you touch a chair?

Now, to me THAT is illogical. Is it to you?

Cheers,
Shafique

event_horizon

Now, to me THAT is illogical. Is it to you?

What about prohibiting a woman from praying/reciting Koranic verses?

shafique

We'll come to your fantasies later eh.

First, let's just clear up your logic about God's words in the Bible concerning menstruating women. Do you still believe you are unclean if you touch a chair?

If not, when did God change His mind?

Cheers,
Shafique

event_horizon

Why do you want to avoid - in your own thread - answering whether you think prohibiting women during menstruation from praying and reciting the Koran is logical?

It's a simple yes or no.

Yes for yes. No for no.

shafique

I'm not avoiding any question at all - I am most happy to give you the logic behind Islam's teachings. I first need to correct some misunderstandings you have which seem to stem from your confusion over what God says in the Bible.

As I said before, I'll get to your misunderstandings after you've clarified your logic. You've talked about Moses' Tent (which is weird) but haven't answered the question about whether you are still unclean when you touch a chair that a lady has sat on (who is having her period).

So - without talking about tents - can you give me your logic for either believing chairs make you unclean, or whether and when God changed His mind about this teaching (that you are unclean if you touch a chair).

As we've seen, you've got quite a few illogical beliefs. Let's clear up whether this is yet another one of them.

(I promise you, I'll give you the proper Islamic teachings - again - and show they are logical. Indeed, I'll just quote what I said last time you brought up the subject, as it appears your memory is going).

Cheers,
Shafique

event_horizon

I'm happy to get on with you addressing your belief why prohibiting menstruating women from praying and reciting the Koran is logical for you.

This is a thread about your belief that Islam's teachings are logical, not your weird fantasies about the Bible.

shafique

I know you're happiest avoiding your illogical beliefs. But as I said before, you can run but you can't hide.

My beliefs are totally logical - it is your belief in the Bible that is illogical, and the bizare way you project illogical beliefs onto Islam.

So, c'mon - stop being coy and tell us whether you believe that touching a chair makes YOU unclean, because that is what the Bible says. If not, please give us your logic for not believing in this Biblical verse.

As I said, I am more than happy to correct your views on Islam - but man up and explain this illogical belief concerning menstruating women and chairs in the bible.

Cheers,
Shafique

event_horizon

You started a thread claiming all of Islam's beliefs are logical to you but you don't want to answer whether you believe prohibiting women from praying and reciting the Koran during their period is logical - or you believe it's logical (ie., you agree with the teaching) but don't want to embarrass yourself with an explanation in front of all the non-Muslims.

Do you want to address what Islam teaches or sweep Islam's teachings under the rug and say everything's logical to you? Doesn't seem like you put as much mental energy in coming to your 'everything is logical to me' claim as you want others to believe.

shafique

Yes, I've said I'll be happy to clear up your loon understanding and explain the logic of Islam's teachings in regards to menstruating women. I've said this a few times now, are you not reading what I post?

What is amazing is that you're evading the question about God's words in the Bible (as you believe) that say YOU would be unclean if you touch a chair that a menstruating woman sat on.

Please explain whether you still believe in this Biblical commandment (to wash after touching the chair) or what logic you used to stop believing this verse applies.

I will gladly put you out of your misery and explain where you're going wrong with your misunderstanding of Islam once you answer the above.

Are you unclean after touching a chair? Or is the Bible wrong?

Cheers,
Shafique

event_horizon

Great - happy to clear up any misunderstandings.

Are Muslim women on their periods allowed to pray and recite verses from the Koran (according to Sunni teachings)?

shafique

So, are you unclean after touching a chair? Or is the Bible wrong?

Islam's teachings are very logical - and yes, women who are menstruating are allowed to pray to God and recite verses of the Quran. They do not take part in the formal 5 daily prayers and some women choose to not touch the Quran physically during their periods.

As we saw in the thread about Friday sermons in a Canadian school - the girls who were having a period attended the Friday sermons and just sat out the formal collective prayers.

The logic is that prayers can be shortened, forestalled or combined when a Muslim is inconvenienced in some way - eg if one is on a journey, not well etc. God says that we should not approach prayers if we are not in full control of our senses - prayer is a time of intense meditation and concentration, and the focus is on worship of God and enhancing our spirituality.

Women who are having their period are excused from doing the 5 congregational prayers and from fasting (during Ramadhan or voluntary fasts).

There is no prohibition for women to pray to God as Muslims do in between the formal 5 daily prayers, and there is no prohibition for women to recite the Quran - although some women do not touch the Quran out of respect.

I find this logical.

The Bible says a woman is so ritually unclean that if someone touches a chair that she has sat in - that person becomes unclean. I'd like to hear your logic as to whether you believe God's commandment still applies - or
whether you think this is not God's commandment (or that God changed His mind).

Edit:
Here are Islamic references for this (and shows that women can read the Quran):
http://www.muslimaccess.com/articles/Women/women_touching_quran.asp

Cheers,
Shafique

event_horizon

Women who are having their period are excused from doing the 5 congregational prayers

Women are not excused from praying, they are prohibited. The two words are not the same.

I'm curious then, what is logical in prohibiting someone from praying if they are on their period?

There is no prohibition for women to pray to God as Muslims do in between the formal 5 daily prayers, and there is no prohibition for women to recite the Quran

So why do Muslim websites say women are prohibited from touching the Koran? Did you make up your own religion again?

Just because you claim something does not make it so. The consensus I found on the web is that Muslim women are prohibited in Islam from both touching the Koran and reciting the Koran's verses while they are on their periods:

http://sisters.islamway.com/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=448

http://islamqa.com/en/ref/2564

Obviously, these two sources flatly contradict your claim that there is no prohibition to recite the Koran. Clearly that's something you made up on the spot and didn't bother to fact check (and, of course, projected to all of Islam, as is usual).

There are differences of opinion (some saying it is 'ok' to recite the Koan) but the facts from the two articles are that a) the majority of scholars prohibit reciting the Koran and b) with point a in mind, that makes your statement false.

There also seems to be an even greater consensus that touching the Koran during menstruation is haram. But please, show me that a significant portion of Muslim scholars are not of this opinion and I'll begin to believe what you're claiming.

Mahmoud04

did anyone read this book?
"The Bible, The Qur'an and Science"
it is a good one, google it...

shafique

eh - I've given you the logic, I've given you the link to Islamic resources.

Women can pray - just not the 5 congregational prayers. Women can recite the Quran - all are agreed on this. Some women/scholars say women shouldn't touch the Quran physically, but not all Scholars/Women agree with this interpretation/teaching.

Now, by contrast, we await your logic for the Biblical teaching that if YOU touch a chair that a menstruating woman has sat upon, you become unclean and need to take a bath.

Cheers,
Shafique

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