Christian village under blockade - Egypt

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The story says Muslim villagers want a local church torn down because it is not actually a church but a hospitality house that Christians use as a house of worship. They've blockaded the village preventing anyone from entering or leaving - including to get food and basic supplies.

The army eventually intervened and the Muslim side agreed to not use violence (big concession) where the Copts have been told they can't repair the 100 year old church (which is badly in need of repairs).

Also, according to the story, the head of the Egyptian Union of Human Rights Organization said the Muslim Brotherhood has made clear that they are also against the repairing, rebuilding, building of churches, the ringing of church bells and public displays of crosses.

Christians in the Upper Egyptian village of Elmarinab in Edfu, Aswan province, have been forbidden to leave their homes or buy food until they remove the dome of St. George's Church, which was rebuilt in its previous location. Village Muslims, backed by Muslim Salafists from neighboring villages, have threatened to demolish the church on Friday September 9 after prayers and use it as a mosque.

...

On Friday September 2, a "reconciliation" meeting was held under the auspices of security between Muslims and Christians in which the Christians were forced to give in to the Muslim demands of the new church being stripped of crosses, bells and outside microphones (which churches never have).

"For the sake of peace we agreed to their demands," said Father Makarios Boulos, "although the approved permit included crosses, bells and domes."

On Tuesday evening, the same Muslims who attended the reconciliation meeting started to congregate near the church demanding the removal of the six small domes, which would, according to the church's priest, make the whole church collapse if removed.

Muslims also demanded removal of any signs of it being a church. "It has to be called a 'hospitality home,'" Father Makarios said...

Dr. Naguib Gabriel, head of the Egyptian Union of Human Rights Organization (EUHRO), said this incident is one in a series of persecutions and attacks on Copts and their churches. "The Muslim Brotherhood announced immediately after the revolution that it is impossible to build any new church in Egypt, and churches which are demolished should never be rebuilt, as well as no crosses over churches or bells to be rung."

Feeling Dhimmi?

http://www.aina.org/news/20110908193725.htm

shafique

It would be interesting to read the whole story on this - but assuming this blockade is truthfully being reported, then I unreservedly condemn it as unIslamic.

What is a bit funny, is that I've tried to verify the story and look up the highlighted accusation against the Muslim Brotherhood about crosses and bells etc, and found some interesting stories which tell a different story.

One, back in February the Muslim Brotherhood actually put an edict out to PROTECT churches:
http://www.religiondispatches.org/dispatches/hahellyer/4178/muslim_brotherhood%3A_protect_churches%3B_mufti_exempts_egyptians_from_friday_prayer

Also, it transpires that Egyptian law did put restrictions on Christians building and modifying churches. But these laws dated from Ottoman times!!

Since the revolution, a new law has been passed that removes the restrictions. The law also makes demonstrations in front of Churches illegal. So, as reported, a crime is clearly being committed.:
http://advocatesforthepersecuted.org/index.php/news/3026.html

I therefore detect the whiff of loon spin, again.

Cheers,
Shafique

herve

It would be interesting to read the whole story on this - but assuming this blockade is truthfully being reported, then I unreservedly condemn it as unIslamic. Cheers, Shafique

And what do you care it is unislamic, taking out a mortgage is unislamic, and it it did not stop to take one

shafique

What do you care what I care, oh Sheikh Abu Dafda? 😉

The whiff of loon spin is getting stronger. 😀

Cheers,
Shafique

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Also, it transpires that Egyptian law did put restrictions on Christians building and modifying churches. But these laws dated from Ottoman times!!

But I thought the dhimmi laws were abolished? How could this be? 🙄

One, back in February the Muslim Brotherhood actually put an edict out to PROTECT churches: http://www.religiondispatches.org/dispa ... day_prayer

Unless those uppity Christians ever want to repair their church or build a new one (or put a cross on top).

Also, the new Egyptian law is based on what the Indonesians currently have. Churches can only be built if they have the approval of the Muslim community (watch shafique make excuses for that law in light of his opposition to Americans who opposed the Ground Zero Mosque).

What's interesting is that the authorities are following the new law, since Muslims clearly are against the re-pairs/use of this building as a Christian place of worship.

shafique

The spin in unravelling eh - you're post contained no new information, just rambling speculation on your part and some new spin.

You perhaps made a slip in the OP's opening sentence:

The story says Muslim villagers

"The story" indeed!! Perhaps more accurately should have read 'The spin is'.. 😉

Can you dig out a reference which shows that the Muslim Brotherhood banned building of churches, ringing of bells etc after the revolution as alleged - and under what authority they were doing so (they aren't the Government, after all).

Given that a new law was passed in June (and announced earlier in the year) - hasn't this blown a hole in your loon spin?

Cheers,
Shafique

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Can you dig out a reference which shows that the Muslim Brotherhood banned building of churches, ringing of bells etc after the revolution as alleged - and under what authority they were doing so (they aren't the Government, after all).

Do you want me to find what the Muslim Brotherhood's position of having Christians becoming leaders of the Egyptian state is while I'm at it?

The respected Egyptian newpaper Al Masry Al Youm is reporting that, despite prevarications and previous hints to the contrary, a senior figure in the Egyptian Muslim Brotherhood says that its new political party will maintain the position that neither a woman nor a Christian can be president of Egypt.

http://www.nationalreview.com/corner/262110/egyptian-muslim-brotherhood-doesnt-want-female-or-non-muslim-president-paul-marshall

I note you're spinning the paragraph about the Muslim Brotherhood announcing their position, as reported by the human rights activist in the story, as the Egyptian government's new policy.

As for the Muslim Brotherhood's position on building new churches, Raymond Ibrahim notes the Muslim intellectual Dr. Khaled Montaser, responding to a Muslim Brotherhood member in a debate on Egyptian TV, points out the Muslim Brotherhood's grand mufti issued fatwas declaring their stance on the building of new churches:

For example, when Saleh began arguing that a Brotherhood-led government for Egypt would be wonderful for Coptic Christians, Montaser proceeded to read from a number of fatwas issued by the Brotherhood’s former grand mufti, Abdullah al-Khatib—fatwas asserting that it is forbidden to build new churches in Egypt, that in certain situations it is obligatory for Muslims to destroy churches—a regular occurrence in Egypt—and that it is forbidden to bury Christians in Muslim cemeteries, “lest they [the Muslims] suffer from the Christian’s torments of the grave.”

http://frontpagemag.com/2011/06/17/muslim-brotherhood-leader-caught-lying%E2%80%94while-swearing-to-god/

The youtube video of the debate is in the link, so shooting the messenger and ad hominem attacks against Raymond Ibrahim aren't going to work for you.

Besides, you claim you learned Arabic, if you can understand the language as well as read it, you can watch the video to confirm what Raymond Ibrahim is saying.

Or don't and stick with name calling since getting non-Muslims to believe your usual spin is more important than any actual reality.

We also have a quote from the 'Supreme Guide' of the Muslim Brotherhood, Mustafa Mashhur, stating the group's opposition to Christians attaining high ranking positions in the Egyptian government and military:

He also stated that while `we do not mind having Christians members in the People's Assembly [national legislature] ... the top officials, especially in the army, should be Muslims since we are a Muslim country," and Christians can not be trusted to fight for Egypt against Christian foreigners.

Btw, what is this Muslim Brotherhood senior member, Sobhi Saleh, saying in the clip where he's shouting to thousands of jeering spectators? Raymond Ibrahim says he's leading a mob chanting intolerant Islamist slogans and calling for the implementation of sharia law. Could you please confirm what Raymond is claiming, even if you don't believe that Sobhi Saleh's Islamist chants are intolerant:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KFP5JKT_YrE&feature=related

shafique

I asked

Can you dig out a reference which shows that the Muslim Brotherhood banned building of churches, ringing of bells etc after the revolution as alleged - and under what authority they were doing so (they aren't the Government, after all).

Given that a new law was passed in June (and announced earlier in the year) - hasn't this blown a hole in your loon spin?

And what we got was spin over-drive.

eh - just admit that apart from drivel from Raymond Ibrahim and other irrelevant spin, you DON'T have any evidence that the Muslim Brotherhood had any authority to impose a ban on new churches, and forbid the ringing of bells etc - so the bit you highlighted in the OP is nothing but spin.

Thanks for confirming this. Everything else is a sorry attempt at distracting from this fact.

Cheers,
Shafique

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you DON'T have any evidence that the Muslim Brotherhood had any authority to impose a ban on new churches

I note you're spinning the paragraph about the Muslim Brotherhood announcing their position, as reported by the human rights activist in the story, as the Egyptian government's new policy.

No comment on MB fatwa declaring their stance against the building of new churches, etc?

shafique

As I said, you've got no evidence to back up the highlighted claim in the OP.

Yet another 'rogue quote' I guess.

Cheers,
Shafique

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Baby steps. Are you denying the MB opposing Christians and women becoming president of Egypt?

shafique

Why change the subject? Please provide any proof to back up your beliefs/spin.

I am challenging the statement in your OP which you highlighted. It turns out it is, yet again, loon spin and not fact.

Fail. Again.

Cheers,
Shafique

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Silence = consent.

No comment on the MB opposing Christians and women from becoming president of Egypt?

shafique

More fantasies eh?

You highlighted a passage that turns out to be fantasy and not fact. Trying weakly to change the topic doesn't change this fact.

Fail. Again.

Cheers,
Shafique

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You need me to re-explain what you imagined you read?

So I take it you don't want to comment on the MB's position against having women and Christians becoming leaders of Egypt.

Why is that?

Mahmoud04

So I take it you don't want to comment on the MB's position against having women and Christians becoming leaders of Egypt.

Why is that?

freedom of speech 😀

shafique

Mahmoud: Freedom of speech is not the reason I haven't taken eh's bait.

It is rather because he is trying to distract from the fact that this wasn't what he posted in the Original Post, and what he highlighted there isn't actually based on any fact - i.e. it was a fantasy that is not based on reality.

Let's deal with the point in the OP - that he is trying to hype a situation as usual.

Cheers,
Shafique