Canadian public school turned into house of worship?

kanelli

So the majority of the Muslim kids took time off of school to go to mosque, but never did, or did but never came back to school for the rest of the classes? I'm sure their parents must have been pleased with that. How wonderful for them that the public school system is available to round up their kids and babysit them so that they can not get away with avoiding prayer. Don't you think that other religious groups would love to encourage their young people to be more faithful and dutiful to their religion too? Maybe it is a good idea to start up lunch time religious services in other faiths so that members of society can have more religion in their lives. The public schools can be an extension of the local religious organizations to help them reach their goals. Isn't that grand?

shafique

What's that sound? Is it goal posts moving? 😀

But let me humour you - no, I don't see any problem at all in other groups being given the same rights - giving the a place for 40 min of worship once a week at lunchtime. I think overall it would be a good thing for each group to worship/meditate according to their own customs for one lunchtime a week.

Cheers,
Shafique

Bora_Bora

Shaf, where did it say that the request was for ALL students to say the Lord's prayer? I guess I missed that one. I'm sure those that requested it argued that those who chose not to say it could sit it out or had a fair argument as to exclude those who did not want to partipate.

I'm disappointed in you Shaf. You, a person who demands one present the facts and stats to support their statements, supports someone who clearly admits to falling short of having most of the facts!! 😂 Barbara Hall may know what the Human Rights Code says, but seems a bit confused as to how to apply it - errrr, because she doesn't have all the facts? She is also confused about to what length accommodating can be applied - errr, again because she didn't have all the facts? She comes across as being totally unqualified to hold the position of Commissioner.

I see that you take issue with some saying what MIGHT happen. What is the difference between someone saying what might happen, or could happen, or may happen, and what one PREDICTS could happen? Can I remind you as to how many times you claimed victory for your PREDICTIONS? 😮

Flying_Dutchman

He has to twist arguments and make obtuse comments (and repeat himself without any new material until people don't bother to reply) because his platform is inherently weak. I think by now it's obvious he's more interested in silencing opposing views

Its pure gaslighting.

Dillon

He has to twist arguments and make obtuse comments (and repeat himself without any new material until people don't bother to reply) because his platform is inherently weak. I think by now it's obvious he's more interested in silencing opposing views

Its pure gaslighting.

And that’s all he’s ever done from his very first post on the subject!

😂

shafique

Shaf, where did it say that the request was for ALL students to say the Lord's prayer? I guess I missed that one.

Listen to it again - the host calls her on this, and says it was to be said in the classroom.

I'm sure those that requested it argued that those who chose not to say it could sit it out or had a fair argument as to exclude those who did not want to partipate.

And you are basing this on?

I'm disappointed in you Shaf. You, a person who demands one present the facts and stats to support their statements, supports someone who clearly admits to falling short of having most of the facts!! 😂

The facts seem to be clear to me. The TDSB is allowing these services at lunchtime, but in the past refused calls for the Lord's Prayer in the classroom. If you have evidence to the contrary, I'm happy to be corrected.

Did the school board refuse to let Christians say the Lord's Prayer in a separate room at lunchtime (or some other time)?

Thanks for sharing your view that Barbara Hall is confused - I didn't get that from the interview. She was consistent with the TDSB statement posted earlier.

Cheers,
Shafique -- Sun Jul 17, 2011 3:37 pm -- Interesting article from last month:

Schools ignore prayer rules Lawyer who fought for secularism as student reveals new violations By: Nick Martin

Posted: 06/24/2011 1:00 AM | Comments: 0 (including replies)

Children pray in public-school classrooms during school hours throughout Manitoba -- apparently in violation of provincial rules that the department of education says it will not enforce.

The Lord's Prayer is being read over the intercom by the principal or in classrooms by teachers.

Schools allow parent councils to organize petitions for religious exercises through the schools, and in a few cases, directly help organize them.
...

http://www.winnipegfreepress.com/breakingnews/schools-ignore-prayer-rules-124478269.html

😮

Misery_Called_Life

http://cnews.canoe.ca/CNEWS/Canada/2011/07/05/18375271.html

Interesting....

I read this article on three major newspapers publishing in three different countries before I saw it on DF. Wonder why it's getting so much importance.

Bora_Bora

Shaf, where did it say that the request was for ALL students to say the Lord's prayer? I guess I missed that one.

Listen to it again - the host calls her on this, and says it was to be said in the classroom.

I heard her statement. If you notice I put the emphasis on the word ALL.

I'm sure those that requested it argued that those who chose not to say it could sit it out or had a fair argument as to exclude those who did not want to partipate.

And you are basing this on?

Common sense??? Reading the article you posted below, so I guess I can base my statement on:

Tait's freedom-of-information request showed that at R.F. Morrison School in Seven Oaks School Division, Manitoba's most diverse school division, the Lord's Prayer was read over the intercom each morning. Students not taking part went to the library or stood quietly in the classroom among praying classmates.

I'm disappointed in you Shaf. You, a person who demands one present the facts and stats to support their statements, supports someone who clearly admits to falling short of having most of the facts!! 😂

The facts seem to be clear to me. The TDSB is allowing these services at lunchtime, but in the past refused calls for the Lord's Prayer in the classroom. If you have evidence to the contrary, I'm happy to be corrected.

As clear as mud.

Did the school board refuse to let Christians say the Lord's Prayer in a separate room at lunchtime (or some other time)?

I don't know, you tell me.

Thanks for sharing your view that Barbara Hall is confused - I didn't get that from the interview. She was consistent with the TDSB statement posted earlier.

Cheers,
Shafique

She was consistently confused.

Schools ignore prayer rules Lawyer who fought for secularism as student reveals new violations By: Nick Martin

Posted: 06/24/2011 1:00 AM | Comments: 0 (including replies)

Children pray in public-school classrooms during school hours throughout Manitoba -- apparently in violation of provincial rules that the department of education says it will not enforce.

The Lord's Prayer is being read over the intercom by the principal or in classrooms by teachers.

Schools allow parent councils to organize petitions for religious exercises through the schools, and in a few cases, directly help organize them.
...

http://www.winnipegfreepress.com/breakingnews/schools-ignore-prayer-rules-124478269.html

😮

It is a violation of separation of church and state. As was noted,

When the province gets a complaint, it reminds the school division about the guidelines, but beyond that, it's up to individuals to pursue complaints with the Manitoba Human Rights Commission or with the courts, Yeo said.

-- Sun Jul 17, 2011 7:27 pm --

http://cnews.canoe.ca/CNEWS/Canada/2011/07/05/18375271.html

Interesting....

I read this article on three major newspapers publishing in three different countries before I saw it on DF. Wonder why it's getting so much importance.

It is very controversial MCL, but so far only Shaf sees it as many people making a mountain out of a molehill. 😲

shafique

I just happen to agree with the Toronto School Board and think Barbara Hall's explanations weren't confused in the slightest.

What is interesting though is the earlier story about the schools in Manitoba where the Lord's Prayer is being recited over the intercom in clear violation of regulations. No one seems to be disputing the facts in these cases - therefore we'd expect a bigger uproar for these schools. I'm not sure that is the case though.. is it?

Interesting.

Cheers,
Shafique

event_horizon

Yet Bibles can't be distributed (not sure if they're allowed either) on the grounds of public schools during school hours to students with permission slips to receive them.

shafique

Schools in Manitoba are openly flouting the regulations by having the Lord's Prayer recited in class.

eh - do you condemn this or not?

Cheers,
Shafique

herve

Schools in Manitoba are openly flouting the regulations by having the Lord's Prayer recited in class.

eh - do you condemn this or not?

Cheers,
Shafique

If true .....Absolutely!

kanelli

What's that sound? Is it goal posts moving? 😀

But let me humour you - no, I don't see any problem at all in other groups being given the same rights - giving the a place for 40 min of worship once a week at lunchtime. I think overall it would be a good thing for each group to worship/meditate according to their own customs for one lunchtime a week.

Cheers,
Shafique

You must have faulty hearing 🙂

You claim before that it is optional for students to attend. The school board was flexible enough by letting the Muslim students leave school to go to the mosque for prayer. The children made a choice - which was to leave school and not attend mosque, or attend mosque but not return to school for the rest of their classes. The parents are the ones who can discuss the issue of responsibility with their children about skipping mosque and skipping the remainder of their school day. The sensible solution is not to make a public school an extension of the mosque.

Many very religious people would like to see their kids pray at school - but they should put their kids in a religious school then, not ask for secular public schools to arrange optional prayer services during the lunch hours.

I oppose the Lord's Prayer in school, obviously.

shafique

The school board and my point is that the 40 min service is not for all who attend the school - therefore it is just accommodating to the needs of those who wish to use this accommodation.

Contrast that with what the schools in Manitoba are doing, and there is a clear distinction - there they are saying the Lord's Prayer in class, either teachers leading it or via the intercom.

The distinction is that with the Friday prayer service, one has to opt in - whereas with the Lords Prayer pupils have to actively opt out. The latter violates separation, the former doesn't IMO.

But what is clear is that the schools in Manitoba are indeed in violation of the rules. There the condemnation should be unreserved, and I'd expect the media coverage to be greater there. But it isn't.

Cheers,
Shafique

kanelli

Shaf, the reason is that the majority of Manitoba is Christian and a one-minute prayer in the morning announcements simply doesn't seem to bother people. It is just a routine that has little to no meaning for most students. I personally think it shouldn't be said anymore because it does violate the rules. I hope that they will remove the Lord's Prayer in light of the recent controversy over religion in schools.

Like I said, I don't think anyone should conclude that the TDSB controversy is only happening because Islamophobic people are complaining. We can agree to disagree on that one too though.

Bora_Bora

Shaf, the reason is that the majority of Manitoba is Christian and a one-minute prayer in the morning announcements simply doesn't seem to bother people. It is just a routine that has little to no meaning for most students. I personally think it shouldn't be said anymore because it does violate the rules. I hope that they will remove the Lord's Prayer in light of the recent controversy over religion in schools.

Like I said, I don't think anyone should conclude that the TDSB controversy is only happening because Islamophobic people are complaining. We can agree to disagree on that one too though.

I would assume that the students in the schools are Christian. All it would take is one Muslim to be enrolled and all h.e.l.l would break out. Regardless, if the school majority being Christian, and non Christians are excused from prayer, it is still a question of separation of church and state. BUT, apparently the school is following guidelines as set out............the same way the prinicipal who is allowing a section of a school to be turned into a mosque for 40 minutes is justifying that decision based on guidelines.

I'm sure those guidelines are not carved in stone, as are the rules under the Commission of Human Rights, therefore amendments can be made, and should be made to ensure separation of church and state.

shafique

Perhaps your assumption is correct, I don't know.

What I do know is that the schools are in clear violation of the rules. No ifs or buts here - as the article makes clear.

But, nice to see you coming up with some arguments in favour of the action. I respect this view of yours in favour of the Lord's Prayer being said by all. (I personally don't have an issue with this - but am just pointing out that this IS in violation of the code).

I'm not sure which article you read which said that the school is following guidelines - it can't be the one I linked to about the schools in Manitoba who are in violation of the rules. 😉

Cheers,
Shafique

herve

@ al shafique the taliban I think it is pretty arrogant for a fundamentalist islamic like you, who support sharia law and deny every human rights in mooslims countries, to come up here, spin the facts 108 deg and to give lessons to any one in the West. You are the least , far least entitled to do that, you have no credibility . You come to our countries, beg for a passport on false pretense, and when you got it, turn it around, spew your hatred in our streets and our schools and ask us to comform to your standards.
It only works for a short time, soon or later, people realize that, and when they do , they flush out the infection.
you post the same things , over and over , repeating the same posts, DF is not a mosque you dont have to repeat the same prayers hundred times, it does not work on open mind people.
Go back to your cult and kiss the floor.

kanelli

Herve, holy misplaced anger or what! Your ignorance and hatred for Muslims is astounding. I'd hardly call you open-minded.

Bethsmum

Herve may be angry, but he's got a point.

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