Wife Beating In The Koran - Split From Politics Forum

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Re: Wife beating in the Koran - split from Politics forum May 13, 2010
Your response proves what kind of nut job you are.

You're more interested in sounding like an intellectual than in any type of discussion.

Take some posting tips from Desert. He may be a dud, but at least his posts aren't exceedingly long, listless ramblings which contain too many of these " - ".

Seriously, every post you make has one of these in them : -

Could you actually type something out without it -------------

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Re: Wife Beating In The Koran - Split From Politics Forum May 13, 2010
shafique wrote:The fact that I don't know anyone who has ever used this verse to justify wife beating is just that, a fact. Your interpretation of the verse is verifiable - we should be able to find some Muslim men who agree with you, and have acted on this verse.

The difference between a small tap and brutal assault is one of degree, not principle. What Mike Tyson might consider a pat on the back, is probably going feel to me like someone swung a sledgehammer at my shoulders.

You might think that not a single Muslim man uses that verse to justify hitting their wives but the only fact there is that you don't know, as you yourself said.

In any society there are men who abuse their wives, and most of the time will try and find a reason to justify their abuse. Whether it be drunkeness, frustration, depression, religion, or whatever. It's still abuse. There are a number of Muslim authorities who claim that that verse in the Koran allows men to beat their wives, and even go as far to give instructions on how to beat wives so that there are no marks left. That plays right into the hands of a violent husband looking for a convenient excuse to justify their beatings.

http://archive.arabnews.com/?page=13&se ... m=8&y=2005

A rebellious woman who is not moved by kind works, persuasion and admonition is a woman of no feeling and must therefore be punished by beating. Psychiatrists tell us of people, including women, for whom a cure lies in beating.


Saudi law, which I thought was supposed to be Shariah compliant, allows men to hit their wives. There is apparently a line somewhere between what is a legally acceptable beating:

http://www.saudigazette.com.sa/index.cf ... 9052739172

The District Court, however, ruled that the man was within his right to hit his wife according to the law, a ruling that was appealed by the lady at the Appeals Court.


and a legally unacceptable beating:

http://archive.arabnews.com/?page=1&sec ... &y=2004%20

Rania’s Husband Gets Six Months’ Jail, 300 Lashes
Maha Akeel, Arab News

JEDDAH, 31 May 2004 — Rania Al-Baz’s husband has been sentenced to six months in jail and 300 lashes for beating his wife almost to death.

Who decides where that line is? Usually men.

In other countries, the matter is made much more simple. There is no line. Physical abuse of one human being by another is an offence.

Physical abuse is especially offensive because is is usually carried out by someone against a physically weaker person, such as parent against child, husband against wife (or wife against husband as sometimes happens), school bully in playground. Such abuse is a malevolent reflection of the darker side of humans.
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Re: Wife beating in the Koran - split from Politics forum May 13, 2010
I thought that Melika had some evidence of this, but alas it appears she has picked up some of your bad habits.


OH please! What evidence you want?? Should I tape these guys and put it on the youtube? and should the video has the all three steps?

What evidence is more clear than this right for beating wives has been given to men in Quran in a very obvious way!

Again Shafique, It doesn't matter if u havent seen muslim men doing this(As I said u might not socialized with lots of muslim men in muslim country with Islamic rules), what matters it, IT IS ALLOWED IN UR HOLLY BOOK!

You'll have to ask God why men and women are different.


Please u ask him in ur next meeting!! I dont have access to him. How come he give men permission to beat women ( yes yes u are right,they have to warn them first and keep them away from bed second) but he didn't give this permission to women?

How come he couldnt make wiser deceision and put it in his book, so centuries later his followers have to try so much to justify this verse and they wont make any sense!
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Re: Wife Beating In The Koran - Split From Politics Forum May 13, 2010
Hey bonk, glad to see ur posts in most parts of forums, keep this going on! ;)
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Re: Wife Beating In The Koran - Split From Politics Forum May 14, 2010
bonk wrote:The difference between a small tap and brutal assault is one of degree, not principle. What Mike Tyson might consider a pat on the back, is probably going feel to me like someone swung a sledgehammer at my shoulders.


Agreed.

A separate discussion is whether corporal and capital punishment is ever justified - and if 'yes' then the same issue arises - corporal punishment vs brutal assault, capital punishment vs murder.

The crux of the matter is whether the 'line' as you put it below is set at a level which allows Muslim men to batter their wives.

I reject the premise that what God allows in this one verse constitutes a green light to wife beating. I understand others think that what this verse allows is 'barbaric' etc - but I also insist that evidence can and should be presented to support a view that Islam promotes/encourages/condones wife beating.


bonk wrote:You might think that not a single Muslim man uses that verse to justify hitting their wives but the only fact there is that you don't know, as you yourself said.


Again - agreed. That is why the discussion is in two parts.

Part 1 - does God say that men can batter their wives? Or is this verse about corporal punishment?

Part 2 - does any Muslim man use this verse to justify beating their wives?

It is a given that domestic abuse is endemic - both in Muslim countries and the West. The point of this thread is to either accept or disprove the notion that Islam condones wife beating.

If wife beating is endemic - then this implies that if everyone stopped following the Quran or Bible, then wife beating won't be eradicated. Similarly, I would argue that even if you introduced very harsh penalties for just raising your voice against your wife (let alone slapping/beating) - this would not eradicate the problem either. (We'll also gloss over the fact that 'eh' will provide copious excuses/explanations for the catalogue of misogynistic verses in the Bible, but does not accept a literal understanding of this one verse!)

bonk wrote:In any society there are men who abuse their wives, and most of the time will try and find a reason to justify their abuse. Whether it be drunkeness, frustration, depression, religion, or whatever. It's still abuse.


I've said the same many times - I'm glad you agree.

The question becomes whether what Islam allows constitutes abuse or not. I say it does not- any more than the other injuctions about lashes or executions (and also forgiveness) constitute abuse against criminals or their victims.

bonk wrote: There are a number of Muslim authorities who claim that that verse in the Koran allows men to beat their wives, and even go as far to give instructions on how to beat wives so that there are no marks left.


And this is certainly worth exploring. Does this contribute to wife beating in Muslim countries?

My 'Part 2' above suggests it does not - for the verse and these instructions (which is actually about corporal punishment) are not and cannot be used to justify spousal abuse - specifically wife battery.

My argument is that wife beating occurs despite this verse, not because of it.

An examination of the verse shows that this does not provide an excuse for a husband to be violent against his wife.

bonk wrote: That plays right into the hands of a violent husband looking for a convenient excuse to justify their beatings.


It's a great hypothesis - but one I maintain can be tested, both theoretically and in practice. The theory comes from examining what the one verse says, and the practice is to look for instances where men use this verse as an excuse.

Thus far, there has been a lot of hot air. Your first link does not provide any evidence that the verse is used by wife beaters. Your second and third links are appropriate though. For the second though, no details are given about the facts that led to the verdict - or whether the man used the Quran as an excuse. (And I'm sure you won't argue that Western courts have never set free men who've hit their wives - despite what the law says)

I'll challenge you on a specific point you make though.. see below

Rania’s Husband Gets Six Months’ Jail, 300 Lashes
Maha Akeel, Arab News

JEDDAH, 31 May 2004 — Rania Al-Baz’s husband has been sentenced to six months in jail and 300 lashes for beating his wife almost to death.

Who decides where that line is? Usually men.

In other countries, the matter is made much more simple. There is no line. Physical abuse of one human being by another is an offence.


I agree.

Every time a woman beaten in the US (once every 15 seconds according to Amnesty), it is an offence. In Islam wife beating is not allowed, but only corporal punishment in specific circumstances.

Therefore we can test the hypothesis that Islam encourages wife beating or leads to women being oppressed. The comparison should be against societies where people don't believe the Quran is God's words.

Logically, the law in the US must deter some people from raising their hands against their wives. Right?

If it wasn't for the law, therefore a woman would be beaten once every 10 seconds - or even more frequently?

I take a rather more practical view - the problem of wife beating has more to do with other factors than what the law says. A man knows it is wrong to batter his wife - certainly Islam teaches you this fact, and this verse emphasises this fact.


Here's my challenge - you say that all physical abuse against another person is an offence in the West. (I would argue that the same is the case in Islam - with the emphasis on the abuse.) The challenge is to ask whether the law allows for exceptions or not - are there ANY instances where a man can be set free for hitting his wife (or in extremis killing her)? Let's discard any case where it can't be proven - and concentrate on cases where the man admits to hitting/killing the wife. Would there be ANY circumstance where the man would be found not guilty of abuse/murder - i.e. where the court will justify this action?

I would argue that yes, there are certainly exceptions to the law that would allow a man to be found not guilty of abuse or murder. Do you agree? (I'll leave this line of argument here for now -it's just an interesting aside, and not central to my argument relating to what God says in the Quran)


Physical abuse is especially offensive because is is usually carried out by someone against a physically weaker person, such as parent against child, husband against wife (or wife against husband as sometimes happens), school bully in playground. Such abuse is a malevolent reflection of the darker side of humans.


I couldn't have said it better.

My whole argument is that Islam's teachings are in total accordance with this. The fact that Islam also prescribes corporal and capital punishments - eg lashes and executions - does not change this. The harsher the crime, the harsher the punishment - this is what we believe God ordains as justice for society and the victims.


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Shafique
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Re: Wife Beating In The Koran - Split From Politics Forum May 14, 2010
Part 1 - does God say that men can batter their wives? Or is this verse about corporal punishment?


It clearly allows wife battery, any mind read that verse could understand that. Again I have asked this question many times, If if if this is a bout corporal punishment, how come he didnt give this permission to women?

Does he suggest men are superiour? Women needs to be punished to learn under their supervision?


Part 2 - does any Muslim man use this verse to justify beating their wives?


How do u know they don't? What's ur evidence?

u keep talking about every 15 sec in US. first of all even if it was every each second in US, it would not change the fact that this verse is "barbaric". And again, do u have any of this time statistics about Iran ?
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Re: Wife Beating In The Koran - Split From Politics Forum May 14, 2010
melika969 wrote:
Part 1 - does God say that men can batter their wives? Or is this verse about corporal punishment?


It clearly allows wife battery, any mind read that verse could understand that. Again I have asked this question many times, If if if this is a bout corporal punishment, how come he didnt give this permission to women?


It is about corporal punishment - it specifies the crime and the progressive punishments.

The wife is not given the same right because it would be both impractical and stupid. It would be as impractical and stupid for the Olympic committee to rule that women are allowed to enter heavy weight boxing matches, for example.

The wife has to resort to the other measures Islam gives her - ultimately the right to divorce or imprisonment for the husband.

melika969 wrote:Does he suggest men are superiour? Women needs to be punished to learn under their supervision?


God states that men are different from women biologically, and all differences in responsibilities etc stem from this. God also explicitly states that men and women are equal in terms of spirituality, reward etc.

melika969 wrote:
Part 2 - does any Muslim man use this verse to justify beating their wives?


How do u know they don't? What's ur evidence?


It's a question that we can test. As a Muslim man who meets many other Muslims I can draw on personal experience.

Is it wrong to ask the question?

melika969 wrote:u keep talking about every 15 sec in US. first of all even if it was every each second in US, it would not change the fact that this verse is "barbaric". And again, do u have any of this time statistics about Iran ?


Yes - I agree that every woman who is battered is subject to a barbaric act. The point is whether God's commandment in this one verse is contributing to this world-wide problem.

Let me turn this round slightly - what proportion of the 4 women a minute who are being battered in the US do you think that Islam/Quran says is ok? (Assume that all the men doing the battering are Muslim)

My answer is zero. All the women being battered in the US are receiving a beating that God does not allow - and certainly the men aren't following this particular Quranic verse. Do you disagree?

The statistics for one woman being beaten every 15 seconds is from Amnesty's website - and the same place has global comparisons. Do I think Iranians batter their women more frequently than Americans - I'd have to say I don't believe this. This stems from the fact that the studies I've read show that alcohol consumption is a major cause of violence against women, and that I believe that violence against women is correlated to general violence in societies.

Given that the US has much higher rates of alcohol consumption and also general crime (just look at murder rates) would lead me to guess that violence against women in Iran would be a level where less than 4 women a minute are battered.

But then again, if there is evidence to the contrary - I'll happily review that and will not hesitate to update my view.


I'll remind you that I merely asked you for more details to back up your earlier statement that implied you had witnessed Muslim males using the Quranic verse to justify wife battery. I think it was legitimate to ask you for the details - and had you provided such evidence, it would have gone some way to support your argument.

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Re: Wife Beating In The Koran - Split From Politics Forum May 14, 2010
that I merely asked you for more details to back up your earlier statement that implied you had witnessed Muslim males using the Quranic verse to justify wife battery.


This is what you call merely, look at ur sick questions again:

So, c'mon Melika - spill the details.
1. Was it more than the 'one guy' you referred to??
2. Did he a. Admonish, b. abstain from the marital bed, as God says?
3. How long did he abstain from the bed for?
4. What was the alleged crime?
5. Describe the beating you saw, or the beating that the woman said she received (was it a smack round the head, a punch, kick or what)


I don’t know what kind of evidence u want! I m working on that youtube video anyway!

The statistics for one woman being beaten every 15 seconds is from Amnesty's website - and the same place has global comparisons. Do I think Iranians batter their women more frequently than Americans - I'd have to say I don't believe this.


Looooooooool! That shows u have no clue what s going on here! You think they have real stats for wife battery in Iran? You think govt let such information go out?

FYI, Alcohol consumption rate is very high in Iran. We got bottles from black market And we made it inside houses, (Uragh, sharab, any kind!!) but what do u know? U want evidence! Loool

Again, FYI, even muslims drink alcohol in Iran. Like you, they interpret verses in their own ways! Haha!

But aside from alcohol, what gives men authority to hit women here, is not just from alcohol consumption. It is because they think they are superior, because of those verses.

The wife is not given the same right because it would be both impractical and stupid. The wife has to resort to the other measures Islam gives her - ultimately the right to divorce or imprisonment for the husband.


Divorce for women? It is very very very difficult in Islam. Or maybe u have ur own version again here. As they want evidence to prove the guy abused her. And it lots of the cases it s not possible.

God states that men are different from women biologically, and all differences in responsibilities etc stem from this. God also explicitly states that men and women are equal in terms of spirituality, reward etc

Yeah, he stated different things, somewhere he stated men are in charge of women, some other part he stated they are equal! So don’t count on it very much!
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Re: Wife Beating In The Koran - Split From Politics Forum May 14, 2010
shafique wrote:Here's my challenge - you say that all physical abuse against another person is an offence in the West.

No. I said in other countries after referring to Saudi Arabia. What I think is that all physical abuse is an offence against humanity, and is especially offensive when the abuser is physically stronger than the abusee, and is even more especially offensive when the abuser uses some form of authority to justify the abuse (for example law or religion), and is even more especially offensive when the abuser is in a position of authority themselves.

shafique wrote:Would there be ANY circumstance where the man would be found not guilty of abuse/murder - i.e. where the court will justify this action?

Yes, I'm sure there are. That's why there are courts.

If there is a law that says do not beat your partner, then if someone thinks they are in a situation where they are justified in beating their partner, hopefully they will think more carefully, knowing that they might have to stand up in a court of law and explain why their action was justified.

shafique wrote:I would argue that yes, there are certainly exceptions to the law that would allow a man to be found not guilty of abuse or murder. Do you agree? (I'll leave this line of argument here for now -it's just an interesting aside, and not central to my argument relating to what God says in the Quran)

There are always exceptions to the law. That's why there are courts. Of course when the courts start with the premise that wife-beating is acceptable, such as in Saudi Arabia, then that encourges men who want to beat their wives to think it's ok.

If religious authorities take a verse from a holy book and say that it gives permission to men to beat their wives then some men who rely on religious authorities for guidance will think it's ok to beat their wives.

shafique wrote:My whole argument is that Islam's teachings are in total accordance with this. The fact that Islam also prescribes corporal and capital punishments - eg lashes and executions - does not change this. The harsher the crime, the harsher the punishment - this is what we believe God ordains as justice for society and the victims.

Corporal and capital punishment is physical abuse as far as I am concerned. And yes, I can think of scenarios where I would want to see capital punishment carried out but that does not make me a better human being, that is a reflection of my desire for vengance as a human weakness.

If men (or women) want to use religion to justify abusing other people, that does not make them better humans, it just makes it easier in their eyes to be less human.

I have read other arguments (from what I assume are Islamic scholars or authorities) that that particular verse in the Koran does not give permission for men to beat their wives. I don't know whether it does or does not but I do know that their are many men in this world who think it does.

You sound like you are looking for a way to justify or defend wife-beating. I'm glad I'm not your wife.
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Re: Wife beating in the Koran - split from Politics forum May 14, 2010
bonk wrote:You might think that not a single Muslim man uses that verse to justify hitting their wives but the only fact there is that you don't know, as you yourself said.


Bonk, if you haven't figured it out yet, shafique is a bit a religious fanatic and someone who isn't incredibly bright.

He likes to type out long winded, poorly written posts that often go off in every direction.

He also repeats himself a lot (such as saying 'agreed' about two dozen times in that last post) and not going a single post without using one of these -

I admit, I had reread your response to him because it was like you were talking to a child. Shafique has absolutely no common sense.

bonk wrote:You might think that not a single Muslim man uses that verse to justify hitting their wives but the only fact there is that you don't know, as you yourself said.


Seriously. I am awed that shafique has enough brain power to turn his computer on.
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Re: Wife Beating In The Koran - Split From Politics Forum May 14, 2010
melika969 wrote:Hey bonk, glad to see ur posts in most parts of forums, keep this going on! ;)

:).
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Re: Wife Beating In The Koran - Split From Politics Forum May 14, 2010
bonk wrote:What I think is that all physical abuse is an offence against humanity, and is especially offensive when the abuser is physically stronger than the abusee, and is even more especially offensive when the abuser uses some form of authority to justify the abuse (for example law or religion), and is even more especially offensive when the abuser is in a position of authority themselves.


No arguments there.I share exactly the same principle.

I personally do not view corporal punishment as abuse - but I understand the opposing view that a State applying physical punishment is actually carrying out abuse against a weaker member of society.


bonk wrote:
shafique wrote:Would there be ANY circumstance where the man would be found not guilty of abuse/murder - i.e. where the court will justify this action?

Yes, I'm sure there are. That's why there are courts.


So, you'll therefore agree that the law will allow for exceptional cases where physical contact is made, hurt is received, and yet the man is found not guilty. I view the Quranic verse in question as merely codifying this exception in Islamic law.

bonk wrote:
If religious authorities take a verse from a holy book and say that it gives permission to men to beat their wives then some men who rely on religious authorities for guidance will think it's ok to beat their wives.


Yes. I agree. 100%.

My point is that this verse doesn't actually give men the right to batter wives, nor does it in practice translate into Muslims using it as such.

The men who do batter their wives do it despite this verse.

I'm still waiting for instances where this verse is actually applied - but thus far, I've not met anyone or read of anyone actually applying it (but I assume that out there there must be some man who has done so).

bonk wrote:
shafique wrote:My whole argument is that Islam's teachings are in total accordance with this. The fact that Islam also prescribes corporal and capital punishments - eg lashes and executions - does not change this. The harsher the crime, the harsher the punishment - this is what we believe God ordains as justice for society and the victims.

Corporal and capital punishment is physical abuse as far as I am concerned. And yes, I can think of scenarios where I would want to see capital punishment carried out but that does not make me a better human being, that is a reflection of my desire for vengance as a human weakness.


I understand your point of view. I don't think we should relish capital or corporal punishment - but sometimes for justice's sake (for society and the victims) it is a necessary tool when the alternative would be to cause more harm/hurt. Forgiveness is also an integral tool.

bonk wrote:If men (or women) want to use religion to justify abusing other people, that does not make them better humans, it just makes it easier in their eyes to be less human.


Yes. However, you'd have to agree that it is also unfair to unjustifiably condemn a religion over a single verse that doesn't actually cause the harm that people are ascribing to it (as I'm arguing).

bonk wrote:I have read other arguments (from what I assume are Islamic scholars or authorities) that that particular verse in the Koran does not give permission for men to beat their wives. I don't know whether it does or does not but I do know that their are many men in this world who think it does.


Ergo, why we must read the verse and make up our minds - that is the 'Part 1' and then we look to see whether there are actually men out there who use the verse as an excuse to beat women. Is this line of reasoning illogical?

bonk wrote:You sound like you are looking for a way to justify or defend wife-beating. I'm glad I'm not your wife.


So am I :)

Cheers,
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Re: Wife beating in the Koran - split from Politics forum May 14, 2010
shafique wrote:So, you'll therefore agree


shafique wrote:However, you'd have to agree


I don't "therefore" or "have to" agree with anything you or anyone else says.

You're saying the Koran justifies wife-beating in certain circumstances, but you don't know of anyone who has used the Koran to justify the beating of their wife.

I'm saying .... what I said already.
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Re: Wife Beating In The Koran - Split From Politics Forum May 14, 2010
^Well, I was merely assuming a line of logic. If you disagree with the logic, then that would be interesting.

My argument is that the Quran does not condone wife beating - neither in the words of this one verse or in actual practice.

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Re: Wife Beating In The Koran - Split From Politics Forum May 14, 2010
You're saying the Koran justifies wife-beating in certain circumstances, but you don't know of anyone who has used the Koran to justify the beating of their wife.



Good point and still unanswered!


BTW, Event horizon stop personal attacks to Shafique, I am very strict MOD and I will behave you! ;)
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Re: Wife Beating In The Koran - Split From Politics Forum May 14, 2010
melika969 wrote:
You're saying the Koran justifies wife-beating in certain circumstances, but you don't know of anyone who has used the Koran to justify the beating of their wife.



Good point and still unanswered!


Well, my answer to that has been:
The Quran does not allow wife battery under any circumstances and I do not consider the corporal punishment described (as the end result of a process) to be 'wife beating'.


(Hey, Melika - I hope you enjoy being a Mod! ;)

Cheers,
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Re: Wife beating in the Koran - split from Politics forum May 14, 2010
bonk wrote:
That plays right into the hands of a violent husband looking for a convenient excuse to justify their beatings.

So far our atheist friends couldn't find any sound argument against Allah other than giving these "so called" violent verses into the hands of violent husbands as convenient excuse to beat..

However the picture in the west is more dramatic then in the muslim world(sure there is no quran in their life)

In the western world, has anyone ever thought how having direct and strict laws, restricting men from self- expression against women destroying relationships and do harm to the social fiber of the society..
Especially in America where lawyers trading themselves, making fortunes through minial things by using laws as excuse for anything.

You may think secular laws are in favour of women but I tell you it's all in favour of men, threatening the well being of women, family life as well as future of kids and their behavioural pattern...

I'll make you a small list..

1) Men avoid marriage under threat of divorce or incase of a court file against a laughable excuse ,

2) Men avoid divorce with huge compensations, even in the case of a mild smack or raising hand/voice or what have you....

3) It's less troublesome and cost effective to have free s.ex and relationship outside marriage, as they can dump as fast as they can once they've got what they wanted from women.

4)Having kids outside marriage and their denial after birth is a better and more affordable solution and is probably the best way to avoid having a row or wife upset, (as noone knows whether law protected -loving wife can be a negligent one in a marriage)

5) Gay relationships are cheaper in cost, can still get the same satisfaction one would get from wife..less hassle, less troubles and no laws regulating man to man abuse in relationships or in marriage as yet.

6) If you fear verbal of physical abuse of a partner then these days you don't need a relationship either, you can just visit the sperm and egg banks and order kids to surrogate mothers. No problems, in future you can continue incestuous relations as you can never determine who is what. But someone has to make sure that this will not lead to deformities in future generations, as muslims will be waiting at the corner to watch, mock and blame..hmm I can see muslim authors making fortunes writing books about incest relations and deformities of western nations!..ring the ears of herve..

see if I push myself I can find many more..., and more reasons to justify why american women turn to islam as well...
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Re: Wife beating in the Koran - split from Politics forum May 14, 2010
Berrin, if every dispute between a husband and a wife ends with the husband being right (or else), how exactly would that be considered a functional marriage?

I also love how some are comparing a husband beating his wife to criminals being sentenced in a court of law.

I guess husbands are the judge, jury and executioner.
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Re: Wife beating in the Koran - split from Politics forum May 14, 2010
Berrin wrote:
bonk wrote:
That plays right into the hands of a violent husband looking for a convenient excuse to justify their beatings.

So far our atheist friends couldn't find any sound argument against Allah other than giving these "so called" violent verses into the hands of violent husbands as convenient excuse to beat..

Where did I say I'm an atheist? Or for that matter, any other faith or non-faith?
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Re: Wife beating in the Koran - split from Politics forum May 15, 2010
event horizon wrote:Berrin, if every dispute between a husband and a wife ends with the husband being right (or else), how exactly would that be considered a functional marriage?


It wouldn't - you are right, eh.

But let me clarify with you - do you think that any teaching that says a man is the head of a family and that woman needs to submit to his authority is not be a teaching you would consider being from God, and should be ignored?


I've heard many Christians compare marriage to a ship which needs a captain, or a company which has a president - but there are many who say that this is old fashioned and out dated. A woman should be able to do what she wants in a relationship and shouldn't submit to her husband in all disputes. (I make the point, because on this particular aspect, the Quran says pretty much what the Bible says in a number of clear verses - men are given authority over women eg,
Ephesians:
5:22 Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord.
"Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord. For the husband is the head of the wife."
5:23 For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body.


And the verse we are discussing says 'Good women are obedient' (4.34)

What's your opinion eh?

I don't win every argument with my wife and she would hit me with a stick if I told her that God wants her to back down! :)

Edit: Let's be clear - the Judaeo-Christian religions all have verses/practices/beliefs which look misogynistic. Eh's pious Jewish friends, for example, say a prayer every morning where they thank God for not making them a gentile (non-jew), a slave or a woman. Given eh does not condemn Jewish people when they commit acts of terrorism (whether it is Baruch Goldstein in 1994 or the Israelites who enslaved 32,000 virgins after slaughtering all the married women, children and men) - I would be surprised if he condemned this prayer of pious Jews. But I could be wrong - but if not, it would interesting to read the justification of this prayer from him.

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Shafique
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Re: Wife beating in the Koran - split from Politics forum May 15, 2010
Hey, I'm glad we both agree with you that the Koran tells women to be obedient towards their husbands.

The Koran backs this up by giving men some leverage against their wives if they persist in their disobedience.

Strange that shafique would bring up the New Testament in a thread about the Koran. I mean, I really didn't see that happening.

But I'm glad we have an expert scholar to pontificate for us what the New Testament actually says about husbands and wives. I thought the New Testament says that wives have authority over their husbands, but perhaps our resident New Testament scholar could pontificate some more???

In any event, perhaps our resident scholar could also stay on track and explain to the rest of us whether he views the passage in the Koran that says that wives are to be obedient to their husbands as misogynist or backwards?

Of course, since shafique has already stated that he supports *wife beating*, I won't expect him to come to the same conclusion that the Koran is sexist because wives are told to obey their husbands even though he seems to think differently based on what he believes the New Testaments says.

Grant it, all that shafique knows of the NT comes from dot COM websites, so shafique's analysis of what the New Testament actually teaches will be deficient.

But hey, shafique prides himself in fooling others in how learned he is. I'll let him pontificate for a few more pages on the New Testament before I bury him.
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Re: Wife beating in the Koran - split from Politics forum May 15, 2010
event horizon wrote:Hey, I'm glad we both agree with you that the Koran tells women to be obedient towards their husbands.


Well, it says Good women are obedient - not quite the same. However, as I said above for the purposes of this discussion, we can take it as the same as the Biblical commandment for women to submit to their husbands (quoted above).

My question to you was what is your view on these commandments?

Is my asking for your view really 'pontificating'? Do you have a view, or are you just obfuscating?

For my part, I view the Judaic prayer of men thanking God for not making them women (or slaves or gentiles) pretty mysoginistic, and I see no difference between your opinion of what 4.34 says about women (that they should be obedient to their husbands) and what Ephesians says.

Given that they say the same thing, do you apply the same logic to the Bible that you do to Quran 4.34? (But I'm asking first what your view of these verses is first).

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Re: Wife beating in the Koran - split from Politics forum May 15, 2010
Using big words today?

Your post on the New Testament is off topic and has already been answered.

Hopefully a moderator will go ahead and delete your spam posts.

As for the Koran, I agree with you that the Koran is misogynist.

As I said to berrin, in Islam, any dispute between a husband and wife will end with the husband being correct, etc.

The threat of violence and the fact that a husband can treat his wife as if she were a child (a husband may hit his wife or ground her) truly speaks volumes.
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Re: Wife Beating In The Koran - Split From Politics Forum May 15, 2010
Ok - I understand you consider the Quran to be misogynistic. For the purposes of this question, I agree that 4.34 says the same thing as Ephesians in relation to women being told to be subservient to men.

Does your intpretation of 4.34 mean you consider the Quran is not the word of God because it contains misogynistic verses?

If so, why does this logic not apply to the Bible?

(I've tried not to use big words - but happy to explain if still unclear).

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Re: Wife beating in the Koran - split from Politics forum May 16, 2010
So you agree with my comment to berrin regarding the Koran?

Berrin, if every dispute between a husband and a wife ends with the husband being right (or else), how exactly would that be considered a functional marriage?

I also love how some are comparing a husband beating his wife to criminals being sentenced in a court of law.

I guess husbands are the judge, jury and executioner.


Let me know if it's 'unKoranic' for a Muslim husband to ground or eventually slap his wife if she doesn't do the dishes, as he requests.
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Re: Wife beating in the Koran - split from Politics forum May 16, 2010
event horizon wrote:So you agree with my comment to berrin regarding the Koran?

Berrin, if every dispute between a husband and a wife ends with the husband being right (or else), how exactly would that be considered a functional marriage?



I actually said I did above - please actually try and read what I post - I said:

shafique wrote:It wouldn't - you are right, eh.


I've been pretty clear where I stand on your interpretation of 4.34 in terms of wife beating - again re-read the numerous posts above on it.



So... without wasting more time, will you (or will you not) answer the simple questions that I posed:

[Ok - I understand you consider the Quran to be misogynistic. For the purposes of this question, I agree that 4.34 says the same thing as Ephesians in relation to women being told to be subservient to men.

Does your intpretation of 4.34 mean you consider the Quran is not the word of God because it contains misogynistic verses?

If so, why does this logic not apply to the Bible?


If the questions are still unclear, let me know and I'll try to simplify even further.
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Re: Wife beating in the Koran - split from Politics forum May 16, 2010
You're not the only one repeating yourself.

I explained my position clearly in my last post or so:

Let me know if it's 'unKoranic' for a Muslim husband to ground or eventually slap his wife if she doesn't do the dishes, as he requests.
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Re: Wife Beating In The Koran - Split From Politics Forum May 17, 2010
Yes, it is unislamic for a husband to eventually slap his wife for not doing the dishes as he requests.

(It would also be a bit stupid of the man for him to banish his wife, not sleep with her for a few days and then tell her that he is now going to slap her because she doesn't do the dishes - but hey, when you come across such a stupid Muslim man, let me know and we'll both tell him how unIslamic his actions were - go on, find me one that has done this, I dare you. All Mouth, No Trousers - perchance?).

So, now how about the questions I posed?

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Re: Wife beating in the Koran - split from Politics forum May 17, 2010
Yes, it is unislamic for a husband to eventually slap his wife for not doing the dishes as he requests.


Really? To me, it sounds completely Islamic (based on what the Koran says) for a husband to ground then slap his wife around if she does not wash the dishes.

Care to support your argument from the Koran, perchance?
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Re: Wife beating in the Koran - split from Politics forum May 17, 2010
It's only fair that you now answer my questions. I'll happily return to this question and explain to you why it is unIslamic (and actually stupid and never actually happens) for a man to impose the punishment in 4.34 for the 'crime' of 'not doing dishes'. (But if you think about it, you'll get to the answer - and I won't be referring to anything outside the Quran for this argument either).

So, let me repeat the questions for you..

I understand you consider the Quran to be misogynistic. For the purposes of this question, I agree that 4.34 says the same thing as Ephesians in relation to women being told to be subservient to men.

Does your intpretation of 4.34 mean you consider the Quran is not the word of God because it contains misogynistic verses?

If so, why does this logic not apply to the Bible?


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Shafique
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