Rape Of Iraqi Women By US Servicemen

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Rape of Iraqi Women by US Servicemen Posted Apr 27, 2006
This is just another example of what the Great American Imperial Army is doing in the name of Liberating Iraq from the wretched Saddam Hussein and his Baath Party.

I hope you all know sarcasm!

Please note that this is not for the faint of heart. The photos can be quite graphic and disgusting. This is humiliation in its finest. May these Sons of Satan all burn in Hell.

SICK SICK SICK PSYCOPATHS... SCREW THE AMERICAN ARMY IN IRAQ.

The American government and British collaborationist regime shall suffer the worst revenge attacks and I hope it to be soon.....

This is shameful.

Please do not click on the news link if you are offended by such a thing. There are a couple of pictures that are pixelated in the right places but still it is gross.

Load the page without pictures if you can.

Here is the artical for those who want to read it without the offensive pictures though maybe looking at them if you can stomach it will change your mind about what you think is a "great service" being done by the Brits, Americams and their friends in the name of liberating Iraq and getting some oil...

Photos Show Rape of Iraqi Women
by US Occupation Forces
(Please Note: Many of the photographs showing the rape of Iraqi women and the sodomization of Iraqi POW's at the Abu Ghraib prison are now at USA pornographic websites pointing to the possibility of collusion between the depraved US soldiers in the pictures and US based Jewish pornographers. Many of these photographs were also freely disseminated to US occupation forces, perhaps to inflame their nefarious desires and to motivate them to strike out against the Iraqi populace in these perverse ways.)

by
Ernesto Cienfuegos
La Voz de Aztlan

Los Angeles, Alta California - May 2, 2004 - (ACN) The release, by CBS News, of the photographs showing the heinous sexual abuse and torture of Iraqi POW's at the notorious Abu Ghraib prison has opened a Pandora's box for the Bush regime. Apparently, the suspended US commander of the prison where the worst abuses took place, Brigadier General Janis Karpinski, has refused to take the fall by herself and has implicated the CIA, Military Intelligence and private US government contractors in the torturing of POW's and in the raping of Iraqi women detainees as well.

Brigadier General Janis Karpinski said to the Washington Post that Military Intelligence, rather than the Military Police, dictated the treatment of prisoners at Abu Ghraib prison. "The prison, and that particular cellblock where the events took place, were under the control of the Military Intelligence command," Brigadier General Karpinski said to the Washington Post Saturday night in a telephone interview from her home in Hilton Head, South Carolina.

Brigadier General Karpinski, who commanded the 800th Military Police Brigade, described a high-pressure Military Intelligence and CIA command that prized successful interrogations. A month before the alleged abuses and rapes occurred, she said, a team of CIA, Military Intelligence officers and private consultants under the employ of the US government came to Abu Ghraib. "Their main and specific mission was to give the interrogators new techniques to get more information from detainees," she said.

Today, new photographs were sent to La Voz de Aztlan from confidential sources depicting the shocking rapes of two Iraqi women by what are purported to be US Military Intelligence personnel and private US mercenaries in military fatigues. It is now known that hundreds of these photographs had been in circulation among the troops in Iraq. The graphic photos were being swapped between the soldiers like baseball cards.

Speaking on condition of anonymity, one Mexican-American soldier told La Voz de Aztlan, "Maybe the officers didn't know what was going on, but everybody else did. I have seen literally hundreds of these types of pictures." Many of the pictures were destroyed last September when the luggage of soldiers was searched as they left Iraq, he said

An investigation, led by Army Major General Antonio M. Taguba, identified two military intelligence officers and two civilian contractors for the Army as key figures in the abuse cases at the Abu Ghraib prison. In an internal report on his findings, Major General Taguba said he suspected that the four were "either directly or indirectly responsible for the abuses at Abu Ghraib and strongly recommended disciplinary action."

The Taguba report states that "military intelligence interrogators and other U.S. Government Agency interrogators actively requested that Military Police guards set physical and mental conditions for favorable interrogation of witnesses." The report noted that one civilian interrogator, a contractor from a company called CACI International and attached to the 205th Military Intelligence Brigade, "clearly knew his instructions" to the Military Police equated to physical and sexual abuse. It is not known whether these instructions included, or led to, the raping of Iraqi women detainees as well.

http://www.aztlan.net/iraqi_women_raped.htm

Liban
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Posted Apr 27, 2006
THIS IS THE MOST OUTRAGEOUS PHOTOS I HAVE SEEN MY ENTIRE LIFE!GOD fogive them for they do not know what they have done. :cry:

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GOD FORGIVE US OUR SOULS AND PLACE THEM INTO HEAVEN!
vicky40_teach
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Posted Apr 27, 2006
So many terrible atrocities are committed in war. I don't find anything shocking from a group of people trained to de-humanise and murder their enemies. Soldiers are trained killers who are supposed to obey their superior officers - this is no different in any other army on this planet. I haven't heard of a war yet where a few military officers haven't gone off the deep-end and done some really horrible things.

This part of the web page was interesting... :roll:

(Please Note: Many of the photographs showing the rape of Iraqi women and the sodomization of Iraqi POW's at the Abu Ghraib prison are now at USA pornographic websites pointing to the possibility of collusion between the depraved US soldiers in the pictures and US based Jewish pornographers. Many of these photographs were also freely disseminated to US occupation forces, perhaps to inflame their nefarious desires and to motivate them to strike out against the Iraqi populace in these perverse ways.)
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Posted Apr 27, 2006
perhaps there are some of us here today who looks on war as if glory..it is HELL! we can only bear the warning voice to the next generation to come :cry: there is no such thing as an envitable war..WAR SYMBOLIZES the failure of human wisdom...because in war whichever side may call itself the VICTOR? :( there are no winners...

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GOD HAVE MERCY ON OUR SOULS :cry:
vicky40_teach
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Posted Apr 27, 2006
Exactly, war is terrible and it brings out the worst in people. All civility goes out the window and people do atrocious things to each other.

Some people shouldn't be so smug or attribute some bad behaviour to one military or nationality in particular. From what I understand, Saddam Hussein's army and police also sexually abused female prisoners, and Saddam and his son Uday used to have young Iraqi girls picked up off the street if they caught their attention, and brought back to the house to be raped.

Here are some personal stories from people close to Uday and Saddam:

http://www.crimelibrary.com/serial_kill ... in/10.html
http://www.crimelibrary.com/serial_kill ... in/11.html

http://abcnews.go.com/ThisWeek/IraqCove ... id=1349603

Here is a fact sheet about treatment of women who displeased authorities in Saddam's Iraq.
http://www.state.gov/g/wi/rls/18877.htm

And the sad part is that the abuse in Abu Ghraib made the US position as stated in the fact sheet look so hypocritical. Here is a chronology of Bush's comments as the Abu Ghraib scandal unfolded.
http://www.slate.com/id/2100014/

So, anyone thinking that rape is just a US soldier "thing" should wipe the smug smile off his face, because the raping of women happens everywhere and is perpetrated by men for many different reasons.

Sorry, I don't have any outrageous and disgusting pictures of Iraqi women being raped by Iraqi police, or Saddam and Uday. I hope that you feel as much sympathy and outrage at their suffering as you do for the Iraqis assaulted in Abu Ghraib by a handful of American military officers.
kanelli
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Posted Apr 27, 2006
Liban i would totally agree with you how disgusting and disgraceful those pictures are.

But i have to also agree with K. You must remember Liban the same thinng happen to many Kuwait women when Saddams troops invaded Kuwait.

Like K, i am not saying any of it is "right", its just that this sort of digusting behaviour it isn't exclusive to the American Army.
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Posted Apr 27, 2006
kanelli wrote:Here is a fact sheet about treatment of women who displeased authorities in Saddam's Iraq.
http://www.state.gov/g/wi/rls/18877.htm


The credibility of a US government site such as the one above can be simply described as ZERO CREDIBILITY. This is the same government that claimed Iraq had WMDs to hide... Not credible as a source.

What people forget is this:

The Americans claim to be doing "good" in Iraq and "saving" the Iraqi people.

Saddam's Baath never professed to doing that.

So do not compare to Baathic Iraq the situation with the Americans becuase at least Saddam admitted to signing execution papers and to torture. The American / British attackers claim to be on the side of good and the side of democracy...

Gang rapes, sodomy, bukkakke, etc... are not what I would call the actions of liberators....
Liban
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Posted Apr 27, 2006
Liban, its not fair to "tar" the whole Army because of the actions of a few perverted and sick individuals.
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Posted Apr 27, 2006
Not saying they are all like that, but what I am saying is that they should not pretend to be on the side of what is good and just when they have scum like the Baathic army they evicted in order to gain access to the oil....
Liban
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Posted Apr 27, 2006
The majority are though Liban. Try not to focus on the minority.
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Posted Apr 27, 2006
arniegang wrote:The majority are though Liban. Try not to focus on the minority.


The American Army is not on the side of good. Neither is the US government and its puppet in GB.... They are hypocritical and are agressors....

Iraq never launched any attack on the US or on GB... And yet look how the Iraqis are suffering while the US recruits hicks from Alabama and Tennessee to go fight its wars of aggression in the ME....

Yeah, hicks are real good...
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a brit response Posted Apr 28, 2006
Liban

Im with u bro. as a brit im disgusted by what is being done in Iraq. but plz dont associate brits with americans in that respect...yeah the GB army is guilty of abuse, but the difference between the US and GB is that most of our population arent inbred hill billies and most of us didnt want let alone agree with the war in the first place...let the blame rest on tony and his bunch of merry men (who as of today arent lookin too good).

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Posted Apr 28, 2006
Liban wrote:Not saying they are all like that, but what I am saying is that they should not pretend to be on the side of what is good and just when they have scum like the Baathic army they evicted in order to gain access to the oil....


And arnie and I told we don't disagree with this! Why do you still want to fight?

What is really shameful is that you have evidence of Iraqis being tortured and raped by Iraqis (NOT US propaganda - IRAQI eyewitness stories) yet you seem to think that it is okay if Saddam did it because at least he admitted it! What kind of logic is that?

By the way Liban, if you were in the army and had to interrogate prisoners, I am guessing that you would have no problem abusing prisoners to get info out of them (even if not raping, just beating and torturing). Even as a non-military person you are bloodthirsty for revenge attacks against the US and UK. I wouldn't put anything past you.
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Re: a brit response Posted Apr 28, 2006
yuppie wrote:Liban

Im with u bro. as a brit im disgusted by what is being done in Iraq. but plz dont associate brits with americans in that respect...yeah the GB army is guilty of abuse, but the difference between the US and GB is that most of our population arent inbred hill billies and most of us didnt want let alone agree with the war in the first place...let the blame rest on tony and his bunch of merry men (who as of today arent lookin too good).

Yuppie


Sounds to me like you might be an inbred country-folk from the UK with that kind of stereotypical attitude.
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Posted Apr 28, 2006
You know why I am so pissed off? Because the doings of a handful of people in Abu Ghraib are being focused on when tens of thousands of Iraqis were being tortured, sexually abused, and murdered under the Saddam regime. Where were all you complainers when Saddam was abusing his own people? Do you think that anything done by Arab Muslims in their own lands is okay - because idealised unity between one race and one religion is more important to you than human rights?

It is a no-brainer that US soldiers should not be abusing prisoners - there is no argument about that and the hypocrisy of "saving" people only to abuse the ones you take prisoner. What is not fair in this whole argument is a) the lack of acknowledgement that all armies are guilty of abuse all over the world - because war is dirty and uncivil - people behave like vicious animals. b) the double-standard between crimes committed by leaders and their armies in their own lands and those committed by other leaders and their armies in foreign lands - aren't all cases of rape and abuse worth standing up and speaking out against? Some of you only speak up when it is the US or UK screwing up.
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Posted Apr 28, 2006
K,

We will always go full circle here. The likes of Liban Lionheart etc find it easier to use the "west" as their "sounding board" to vent off their hatred etc.

But they have always ignored and will ignore the disgusting acts committed by their own against their own.

Lets be frank here, its cool to bang off the west and look like you care about your own and "hate the aggressors".

The reality is they actually dont really give a monkeys.

The west "cares" and to that end we will always be the subject of this hatred. Yes we make mistakes, but in representing and caring for the silent majority rightly or wrongly, at least we can say we tried and the intentions were there. This is more than any muslim or arab would ever do for their own. History over the last 30 years shows in particular, the Arab world as a bunch of Ostrich's that stick their head in the sand at the first sign of conflict between themselves.
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Posted Apr 28, 2006
It is very humourous that when an accusation is made against a Middle Eastern country, it is written off as Western propaganda by some people here. Iraqis have given evidence about systematic rape and torture of women in Iraq under Saddam - it doesn't matter if the link I posted was a US government fact sheet. They got their information from Iraq women's groups, and other independent reports. Just because there were no WMDs found in Iraq, doesn't mean that rape and torture of women didn't happen in Iraq under Saddam. That is faulty logic.
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Posted Apr 28, 2006
I worked with Iraqi Kurds in 1990 and they told me of the abuse that the Baathist regime in Iraq (with Saddam Hussein at its head) were carrying out. Many people were crying out against the abuses then, including the likes of Amnesty International.

However, the Baath party was helped to power by the CIA and Saddam was a friend of the west.

Note that the greatest abuses took place in this time period, and with weapons etc suppled by the 'west'.

Kanelli rightly pointed out that the hypocrisy is evident - hypocrisy in liberating a people and then finding instances of abuses by the liberators.

Whilst I have some sympathy for the argument that these abuses aren't representative of the whole US army, I also note that anyone could conceivably think that by any stretch of the imagination these abuses are ok (Abu Graib - for example).

The British troops would not be so stupid - sure the abuses that have come to light are horific, but not as stupid and gross as the Abu Graib photos.

I've just had a look at the web site link Liban has given - and I'm surprised I haven't heard of this before, the article seems to have been written in 2004. It smacks of sensationalism and I wouldn't be surprised if these are staged photos for pornographic purposes (which in itself is sick, but not as heinous as if they depicted real incidents). Then again, perhaps I'm just hoping that people wouldn't stoop to these levels.

I have to take exception to Arnies general theme a couple of posts up that it is the 'west' that has the heart and cares. The people of the world tend to be the same when it comes to hatred of violence and killings - the west isn't any better or worse when it comes to compassion. In fact, people in developing countries are close to experiences of suffering, poverty etc.

The difference is that the developed countries have the ability to do something about suffering. The tragic thing is that on the whole, the 'West' that is being vilified is the same 'West' that is causing suffering by either supporting regimes that cause suffering, supplying the arms or actually directly causing the suffering (as in Iraq).

I've said this before, we shouldn't get defensive and into a bunker mentality that the rest of the world hates the West. It's not the 'west' - it's the US and to a lesser extent the UK - for what they are doing to the world. No one would say that Sweden or Switzerland isn't part of the 'West' - but they aren't hated, precisely because they aren't causing suffering of other people.

The US and UK should be condemned for causing the current pain and suffering in Iraq. Many British and American people warned that this would be the consequence of an invasion/war - and they have been proved right.

It's a dangerous game to try and justify any violence - and that comment is meant for everyone and no one in particular. Just think about it.

Cheers,
Shafique
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Posted Apr 28, 2006
shafique wrote:I've said this before, we shouldn't get defensive and into a bunker mentality that the rest of the world hates the West. It's not the 'west' - it's the US and to a lesser extent the UK - for what they are doing to the world. No one would say that Sweden or Switzerland isn't part of the 'West' - but they aren't hated, precisely because they aren't causing suffering of other people.

Well said
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Posted Apr 28, 2006
Shaf i take exception that you take exception. :wink:

I still stand by my comment that (and i was generalizing) we do care. Our society in general cares very much about others irrespective of their race religion colour or creed.

This has been mentioned before, where was the help when Kuwait was invaded?.

Everyone can speculate all they like about oil blah blah, but that wasnt the only reason the Brits and americans stormed in.

I think everyone needs to remember also 1914-18 and 39-45. The majority of the rest of the world including the ME, owes a lot to the British for those years. It was because WE CARE as a nation we care.

Who is the first to put their hand in their pockects and take positive action to help others in distress ?

Shaf, you tell me over the last month how many times in Dubai you have been asked to contribute to a worthwhile cause?

I have spent the equivilent of 18 months in dubai and not once have i ever seen a collection for anything.

No, we dont always get it right, and politics do get in the way and sometimes there are underlying agendas. But to say "we dont care" is totally unwarranted IMHO.
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Posted Apr 28, 2006
Any cases of abuse are appalling and it is right that when it does occur each is investigated and the guilty punished - which is what has happened with very public trials.

However, the biggest tragedy in Iraq now is the daily slaughter of muslims by fellow muslim in the terrible pursuit of trying to make the country descend further into chaos and anarchy. I don't know how these evil people can justify this large-scale daily killing of innocents for their own ends.
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Posted Apr 29, 2006
Arnie - the British people do have compassion and do donate to good causes.

The victories in the two world wars weren't done out of compassion for other people - they were for national interests. It was only when Hitler invaded Poland with whom we had a treaty that we entered the war.

After the war was over, Winston Churchill and the rest of the west stood by while Stalin committed genocide - in fact history shows that they knew this would happen and made a calculated decision to allow it.

British troops similary committed acts of brutality and mass killing in India and Africa, and Australia. These are a bit further back in history, but not that long ago - in the times of our grandfathers.

Now, where I will agree with you is that Western governments have shown a greater will to intervene than Middle East, African etc governments. We shouldn't equate this with the compassion of the people of the countries - this is the point I was making and taking exception to.

The Mid East people weren't less interested in helping Kuwait than the British people...the Mid East governments/powers that be were/are too used to doing what their paymasters want them to.

I just think you can't equate actions of those in power with that of the people they govern. Would it be right to think of the average US and UK citizen (which includes me, btw) as a person who agrees with illegal invasions and killings of innocents/collateral damage? All those who marched against the war would suggest otherwise.

Similarly, the inaction of leaders who were put in place and kept in place by other nations do not necessarily reflect the will of the people they govern.

What needs to be borne in mind is the hypocrisy that is evident in international politics these days - Iran is a democracy with a popular leader, yet is being threatened. Kuwait is an autocracy where there is no political freedom, but complete subjugation to the will of the US and free rein to the US to station troops etc on its soil.

It is not the countries that abuse their citizens the most that get the most criticism from the US and UK - if it was, then there would be sabre rattling against Burma, Saudi, Zimbabwe etc etc.

Instead, Syria and Iran are painted as axis of evil, for daring to voice dissent against what the US is doing. Libya hasn't changed, in fact Libya is building a massive underground lab to make chemical weapons, but since Gaddafi found his sense and decided to become friends again with Washington - they are best of friends now. All it took was for him to pay damages for Lockerbie when all the evidence is actually that Iran was reponsible for Lockerbie as a retaliation for the Iranian jet (full of passengers) that was shot down by US fighter planes a few months before.

History shows that the man in the street (any street) will show compassion and contribute.

As you asked Arnie about had I been asked for contributions since being here.. well the first time was on the Emirates plane with envelopes for charity. The last time was two days ago at the City Centre shopping mall where people were collecting for some charity - I thought they were trying to sell things initially and only realised they were charity people after I had passed. There were people signing up - locals I might add.

Also, all the malls I have been in have deposit boxes with glass signs for charity - and these are invariably half full of notes.

Also today on the TV there was an ad for 'The Kuwait Fund' - which does global work for poverty..

Human nature is no different in the temperate zones than it is in the tropics or deserts.. humans are humans ... if you feather them they bleed, if you tickle them they laugh (apologies to Shakey).. if you wrong them they will seek revenge.
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Posted Apr 29, 2006
A message from a friend:
From what I understand, Saddam Hussein's army and police also[emphasis mine] fun abused female prisoners....

Is that suppose to be a trick question? In other words, both armies are ethically equal.
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Posted Apr 29, 2006
Here is a report from trusted source - Amnesty International.

Amnesty: Iraqi Women No Better Off Post-Saddam

LONDON -- Nearly two years after the U.S.-led invasion of Iraq, women there are no better off than under the rule of ousted dictator Saddam Hussein, the human rights group Amnesty International said on Tuesday.

In a report entitled "Iraq -- Decades of Suffering," it said that while the systematic repression under Saddam had ended, it had been replaced by increased murders, and sexual abuse -- including by U.S. forces.

Washington promised that the overthrow of Saddam would free the Iraqi people from years of oppression and set them on the road to democracy. But Amnesty said post-war insecurity had left women at risk of violence and curtailed their freedoms.

"The lawlessness and increased killings, abductions and rapes that followed the overthrow of the government of Saddam Hussein have restricted women's freedom of movement and their ability to go to school or to work," Amnesty said.

"Women have been subjected to sexual threats by members of the U.S.-led forces and some women detained by U.S. forces have been sexually abused, possibly raped," it added.

Amnesty said several women detained by U.S. troops had spoken in interviews with them of beatings, threats of rape, humiliating treatment and long periods of solitary confinement.

The Pentagon said it had not seen the report, but took any allegations of detainee abuse seriously.

"We have demonstrated our commitment to ensuring that kind of behavior is identified and dealt with properly," spokesman Lieutenant-Colonel Joe Richard said in Washington.

"With this report, we would like the opportunity to review it and to test the validity of the allegations."

Amnesty said women's rights activists and political leaders had also been targeted by armed insurgent groups.

Women continued to suffer legal discrimination under laws that granted husbands effective impunity to beat their wives and treated so-called "honor" killers leniently, the group said.

"Within their own communities, many women and girls remain at risk of death from male relatives if they are accused of behavior held to have brought dishonor on the family," Amnesty said, noting some attempts by religious zealots to make the laws even more repressive against women.

But on the positive side, the report said several women's rights groups had been formed -- including ones that focused on the protection of women from violence.

Amnesty called on the Iraqi authorities and newly elected members of the National Assembly to enshrine the rights of women in the new constitution.

This included treating honor killings as murder, outlawing violence within marriage and making sure that the punishment was commensurate with the crime committed.

Source: http://www.commondreams.org/headlines05/0222-08.htm
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Posted Apr 29, 2006
Whilst we can all express our particulare viewpoints and interpretations of events, let us not forget that we all are revulsed at the killing and humiliation of human beings.

Rape is a crime and a heinous one at that.

I hope that we can agree on that and condemn all injustice and amically discuss any differences in opinion we have with this notion in mind.

The problems with forums is that the written word is not always a good medium to convey one's actual sentiments or intentions, and sometimes the words are given sentiments or emotions that aren't intended by the author.

I felt at ease in pushing back at arnie in the posts above, knowing that I have built up a rapport and that he would know I am not being malicious or vindictive. There is an element of being provokative and playing Devil's advocate as well in the posts - I just thought I'd clarify that for others in case the impression that arnie and I disagree about the big issues - we don't. We just happen to be discussing peripheral opinions on the state of nations' - and at the end of the day, they are just that - opinions and interpretations.
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Posted Apr 29, 2006
Anyway you cant disagree with me too much Shaf.

I have your ipod battery dont forget

:lol: :lol: :lol:
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Posted Apr 29, 2006
As I have said before, atrocities have happened from BOTH sides in any WAR and it is always unacceptable, but all this is absolutely nothing new! The only reason we find out about it, is that people are dumb enough to take digital photos and videos and then take them out of these places. What you think before this technology brutalities like this weren't taking place? It's alwasy happened, just now it's easy to document - but it doesn't make it right either way.

Female officers from allied forces have been raped and tortured as well, but nobody harps on about that or brings that to light. As with anything, it's the sad actions of a few morons who managed to get into the armed forces in the first place that bring the credibility down of the rest of the troops. The majority act with the utmost prefessionalism.
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Posted Apr 29, 2006
Female officers from allied forces have been raped and tortured as well, but nobody harps on about that or brings that to light.

Sad... very sad...
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Posted Apr 29, 2006
Arnie - as long as you have the battery hostage, of course I agree with you! :)

Choco - I hadn't heard about females from the UK and US being raped and tortured in Iraq.. so you are right about no one 'harping' on about this. Was I mistaken in believing that there weren't any such abuses commited?

The one incident that did make it to the media was that of the female US private that was 'liberated' from a hospital, despite the fact that the doctors had told the US army where she was and that there were no guards imprisoning her. She was treated well she says.

I'd also like to put the record straight as to my view of the British army - I have 2 uncles that served in WW2 and my dad was a reservist (TA). I have great respect for the army and their professionalism.. they do a lot of peacekeing aroundthe world and keep us Brits safe.

I disagree with some political decisions and I am proud that I have the freedom to express these views.

Cheers,
Shafique
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Posted Apr 29, 2006
shafique wrote:Choco - I hadn't heard about females from the UK and US being raped and tortured in Iraq.. so you are right about no one 'harping' on about this. Was I mistaken in believing that there weren't any such abuses commited?

I not sure if she meant these, but following page has some stories http://www.aztlan.net/latinas_us_military_raped.htm
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Posted Apr 29, 2006
shafique wrote:Arnie - as long as you have the battery hostage, of course I agree with you! :)

Choco - I hadn't heard about females from the UK and US being raped and tortured in Iraq.. so you are right about no one 'harping' on about this. Was I mistaken in believing that there weren't any such abuses commited?

The one incident that did make it to the media was that of the female US private that was 'liberated' from a hospital, despite the fact that the doctors had told the US army where she was and that there were no guards imprisoning her. She was treated well she says.

I'd also like to put the record straight as to my view of the British army - I have 2 uncles that served in WW2 and my dad was a reservist (TA). I have great respect for the army and their professionalism.. they do a lot of peacekeing aroundthe world and keep us Brits safe.

I disagree with some political decisions and I am proud that I have the freedom to express these views.

Cheers,
Shafique


Shaf, I'm not sure where your info on the female private comes from, it was well documented (she's even written it in a book) that she was captured, held against her will, she was raped and the docs tried to amputate her leg, even though the damage to it didn't warrant it!
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Posted Apr 30, 2006
Chocoholic wrote:As I have said before, atrocities have happened from BOTH sides in any WAR and it is always unacceptable, but all this is absolutely nothing new! The only reason we find out about it, is that people are dumb enough to take digital photos and videos and then take them out of these places. What you think before this technology brutalities like this weren't taking place? It's alwasy happened, just now it's easy to document - but it doesn't make it right either way.

Female officers from allied forces have been raped and tortured as well, but nobody harps on about that or brings that to light. As with anything, it's the sad actions of a few morons who managed to get into the armed forces in the first place that bring the credibility down of the rest of the troops. The majority act with the utmost prefessionalism.




[qoute]Female officers from allied forces have been raped and tortured as well, but nobody harps on about that or brings that to light. As with anything, it's the sad actions of a few morons who managed to get into the armed forces in the first place that bring the credibility down of the rest of the troops. The majority act with the utmost prefessionalism[/qoute]



Choco...could you please provide us with information about the rape of female hostages at the hand of insurgents? If you can than I will believe you, but since you can't because there has never been an incident so far were insurgents have raped the female hostages they captured like the American and British troops and by the way its not only view troops who are raping and killing civilian in discriminately. Perhaps over 80% of occuppied troops would rape Iraqi woman if they had the chance and kill Iraqis indiscriminately, just like their fathers did in Vietnam....


Choco...Insurgents are fighting for their land and honor, what cause are the British and Americans fighting for in Iraq..... Oil, Greed, domination, Imperlism, etc....
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Posted Apr 30, 2006
arniegang wrote:K,

We will always go full circle here. The likes of Liban Lionheart etc find it easier to use the "west" as their "sounding board" to vent off their hatred etc.

But they have always ignored and will ignore the disgusting acts committed by their own against their own.

Lets be frank here, its cool to bang off the west and look like you care about your own and "hate the aggressors".

The reality is they actually dont really give a monkeys.

The west "cares" and to that end we will always be the subject of this hatred. Yes we make mistakes, but in representing and caring for the silent majority rightly or wrongly, at least we can say we tried and the intentions were there. This is more than any muslim or arab would ever do for their own. History over the last 30 years shows in particular, the Arab world as a bunch of Ostrich's that stick their head in the sand at the first sign of conflict between themselves.



arniegang... if you wish to address the use of propoganda, you don't need to point fingure at me and Liban, you need to point fingure at yourself and the media you watch in West. Because your beloved "fair and balance Media" has turned blind eye on the atrocities committed by your government in Iraq and against most of the third world.
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Posted Apr 30, 2006
Chocoholic wrote:
shafique wrote:Arnie - as long as you have the battery hostage, of course I agree with you! :)

Choco - I hadn't heard about females from the UK and US being raped and tortured in Iraq.. so you are right about no one 'harping' on about this. Was I mistaken in believing that there weren't any such abuses commited?

The one incident that did make it to the media was that of the female US private that was 'liberated' from a hospital, despite the fact that the doctors had told the US army where she was and that there were no guards imprisoning her. She was treated well she says.

I'd also like to put the record straight as to my view of the British army - I have 2 uncles that served in WW2 and my dad was a reservist (TA). I have great respect for the army and their professionalism.. they do a lot of peacekeing aroundthe world and keep us Brits safe.

I disagree with some political decisions and I am proud that I have the freedom to express these views.

Cheers,
Shafique


Shaf, I'm not sure where your info on the female private comes from, it was well documented (she's even written it in a book) that she was captured, held against her will, she was raped and the docs tried to amputate her leg, even though the damage to it didn't warrant it!





Choco...Isn't odd that she never claimed any rape or torture after her so-called rescue....only after 1 million dollar book deal did she remember that the Iraqis raped and tortured her... I mean what better way to sell you book than to claim that the enemies raped tortured me....

Four of the people in that Humavee died and she was the only one who lived from that crash, now lets see the Iraqis took her to somewhere and savagely raped her, then took her to the hospital, where they obviously cared for her as best as they could. :roll: :roll: , why not kill her....why would they go ahead and save her life, just so she could be used maybe later on as a witness to iraqi war crimes. Doesn't make sense to me....and how could she remember the rape when she was unconscious until she treated in the hospital... :?: :?:



http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story/0,2763,1083110,00.html

Private Lynch's media war continues as Iraqi doctors deny rape claim

Sexual assault would have killed injured soldier, says medical team

Gary Younge in New York
Wednesday November 12, 2003
The Guardian


The Iraqi doctors who treated the American soldier Jessica Lynch said yesterday that they were "pained" by accusations that she was raped sometime after being captured.
The doctors insisted that the claims, detailed in her biography, I Am a Soldier, Too: The Jessica Lynch Story, which was published yesterday, were untrue, and that examinations of her showed that she had not been sexually assaulted.

Ms Lynch was unconscious for three hours after her convoy was ambushed and she says that she has no recollection of what happened to her.

But medical records which form part of her official biography indicate she was raped, according to the author, Rick Bragg. "The records also show that she was a victim of anal sexual assault," the book contends.

"The records do not tell whether her captors assaulted her almost lifeless, broken body after she was lifted from the wreckage, or if they assaulted her and then broke her bones into splinters until she was almost dead."

Ms Lynch's primary doctor during the three months she spent at the Walter Reed medical centre, which treats casualties from the war, backed up the claim.

"The exam in Landstuhl," Greg Argyros told Time magazine, referring to the place in Germany where she was treated, "indicated that the injuries were consistent with possible anal sexual assault."

Ms Lynch, a supply clerk for the 507th Ordnance Maintenance Company, has never claimed that she was raped. "Even just the thinking about that, that's too painful," she said.

But Bragg, a former Pulitzer prize winner, said it was the soldier's parents who felt that the details of her condition and of the alleged sexual assault should be included in the biography. "Because if we didn't put it in, the story wouldn't be complete. It would be a lie," he said.

The author, who left the New York Times this year after he was suspended for failing to credit a freelance reporter for doing the bulk of his reporting, did not visit Iraq while researching the book.

The claims have infuriated and shocked doctors in Nassiriya, where Ms Lynch was taken after a rocket-propelled grenade attack hit her Humvee vehicle on March 23. "She was a woman, young and alone in a strange country," said Jamal Kadhim Shwail, the first doctor to examine Ms Lynch when she was taken to the town's military hospital by Iraqi special police. When he saw Ms Lynch, Dr Shwail said, she was lying in the hospital reception, unconscious and in shock from blood loss. She was wearing her uniform including a flak jacket, military trousers and boots; none of her clothes had been unbuttoned or removed, as the book claims, he said.

"We only had a few minutes to save her life, we found a vein in her neck to give her fluids and blood," Dr Shwail told Reuters at his home in Nassiriya. "It was our duty to look after her and we did. Now people are saying she was raped, it pains us. The thought did not cross my mind.

"Her injuries were consistent with severe trauma, a car crash, nothing else."

Mahdi Khafazi, who operated on Ms Lynch's fractured right femur, said he had cleaned her body before surgery: "I examined her very carefully. I cleaned her body including her genitalia. She had no sign of raping or sodomising."

A sexual assault of that nature, he said, would have killed her: "If she had been raped there is no way she could have survived it. She was fighting for her life, her body was broken. What sort of an animal would even think of that?"

Khudair al-Hazbar, then deputy director of the hospital, said: "It was war, but we cared about her and we did everything we could for her. I spoke to her every day. She was frightened, but polite to us. I know she is grateful."

On April 1, after Iraqi forces deserted the hospital, it was raided by US forces. The event was filmed by the military through a night-vision lens and Ms Lynch was taken away on a stretcher.

"They attacked the hospital at night. There were explosions outside which broke the windows. The patients were terrified," Dr Hazbar said. "The Americans knew the Iraqi military had gone, so why they didn't come for her quietly, I don't know."

The dispute over the sexual assault is just the latest salvo in the media war over the portrayal of Ms Lynch's injuries, capture, treatment and rescue, which has intensified in the run-up to the publication of her biography.

Shortly after she was rescued by US soldiers anonymous American officials told journalists that the private had heroically resisted capture, emptying her weapon at her attackers until the last minute.

Subsequent investigations revealed that her vehicle had crashed after her unit lost its way, her M16 rifle, clogged with sand, had jammed from the outset and the Iraqi doctors had not only treated her well but tried to give her back when they were fired upon by US troops. Asked in an interview to be screened last night whether the military's depiction of events troubled her, Ms Lynch said: "Yeah, it does. It does that they used me as a way to symbolise all this stuff. Yeah, it's wrong. It hurt in a way that people would make up stories that they had no truth about.

"Only I would have been able to know that, because the other four people on my vehicle aren't here to tell the story. So I would have been the only one able to say, 'Yeah, I went down shooting.' But I didn't.

"I'm not about to take credit for something I didn't do. I did not shoot, not a round, nothing. I went down praying to my knees. And that's the last I remember."

Ms Lynch has also contested claims by an Iraqi lawyer, Mohammed Odeh al-Rehaief, who reported her whereabouts to the US military and who now lives in America. He claimed in a book that her captors had slapped her.

"From the time I woke up in that hospital, no one beat me, no one slapped me, no one, nothing," she said. "I'm so thankful for those people because that's why I'm alive today."

Jeff Coplon, who helped Mr Rehaief write the book, said last week that both he and Ms Lynch could be right: "One of the questions that could arise in the wake of this kind of trauma is that someone could believe they remember everything and their memory could still be incomplete."
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Posted Apr 30, 2006
Lionheart once again your opinion is biased in propaganda and unwilling to see another side of the issue.

Go and read the book BRavo Two Zero, and see what horrible things were done to captured RAF pilots in the first Gulf War - in the name of interogation, of which torture and mistreatment is an integral part - why do you think military personal go through rigorous training and told not to say anything apaprt from name rank and serial number - and wake up it happens on both sides, what you expect these things not to happen in a state of war, how completely naive of you.

It's not right on either side, but it happens non the less.
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Posted Apr 30, 2006
I have to admit this is the first time I've heard of allegations of rape etc of Private Lynch. It wasn't reported in the British media in a prominent way is my only explanation - I read papers and watch the news every day.

Choco - the mistreatment of combatants is one thing, that is war. In terms of torture to extract information, this is being done against innocents today - by the allies. All the fuss about 'renditions' - sending people captured to places where they can be tortured and be outside the Geneva conventions is exactly this issue.

Guantanamo bay is also a monument to the US flouting civilised rules of engagement and cynically holding men illegally without trial in Cuba just so that they can't avail of the laws that would have to be followed if they were held on US soil.

Reading through the article above - it is by no means clear that Pvt Lynch was raped or even abused. Her life was saved by Iraqi doctors - no one disputes this. She was un-guarded and the person who led them to her (her treating doctor) is living as a guest of the US in the USA.

I'm afraid that the scales of injustice in this regard weigh far more heavily on the allies than on the Iraqi insurgents.

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Shafique
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Posted Apr 30, 2006
Shaf, With all due respect it was through the UK media that her plight was reported! Plus on virtually every news channel. Sadly I don't think we will ever know the truth as there are inconsistencies on both sides with regards to the rescue reports. But it's not all one sided, you have to look at the stories coming from both sides and make an informed judgement as to what the truth might be.

But I wish people would stop tarnishing whole regiments and people because of the actions of a few renegade people, certainly many of the insurgants are hardly innocent, nor were Saddam's men, nor were their actions towards captured allied forces in both Gulf Wars. You can round and round on the arguments till your blue in the face, it still won't change a single thing.
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Posted Apr 30, 2006
Plus I will say that no-one can ever really know what is happening unless you're there, therefore are any of us really qualified to comment on any of this?

Many people belive what they're spoonfed without taking a step back and looking at the situation objectively, just as Lionheart likes to tar all service and military people with the same brush, do you see people doing it to terrorists and bombers? With the majority no you don't because people are more intelligent than that - or I would hope so anyway.

Much of this stuff is smoke and mirrors and you'll only be given the info the forces, media etc want you to have.
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Posted Apr 30, 2006
As far as I know, there was no confirmation of rape in any of the reports of female soldier captives. Either they were unconscious and don't remember, and/or the doctors say there was no evidence of rape.

There are far fewer female soldiers or kidnap victims in Iraq to be s.e.x.ually abused, so I don't think that anyone should conclude that it wouldn't happen if there were more men exposed to more opportunity. Men are men after all.

I think that everyone has agreed that rape and torture is wrong, no matter who does it.

I'd also like to point out that it wasn't just the US who was supporting Iraq and Saddam for strategic purposes. So pointing the finger solely at the US as being indirectly responsible for atrocities commited by the Baath party is not really fair. There are so many excuses given when the simple fact is that Saddam Hussein was a monster who set up his own kind of rule that was mainly responsible for the atrocities. Iraqis raped and tortured their own people and the US was not telling them to do it, it was Saddam and the Baath party.
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Posted Apr 30, 2006
Choco - what can I say, I have no recollection of the reports. I've gone back and looked at the BBC archives and they do report the allegations which arose in her book in Nov 2003. Prior to this there were no such reports - all said she had no recollection.

I do remember the other news stories about her - the film deals and also the documentary by the BBC which showed the spin around her release.

There was another female captive in the war - a black lady named Johnson. She was shot in the ankle and paraded on TV as a captive. She hasn't made any accusations of rape etc.

Apologies for not knowing of the rape allegations of Jessica Lynch.. now I do know them. Looking back at what I wrote though, nothing of substance is changed.

We live and learn.

Cheers,
Shafique
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Posted Apr 30, 2006
Shaf, Like I said there are many different versions of what's happening to people on all sides in these situations. I would hope that they are untrue, but sadly in many cases not so.

What can I say the whole thing is a mess and there are atrocities takig place all over the world, it is by no means unique to Iraq, Iran etc, just take a look at South Africa, now that whole thingh is really messed up!
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Posted Apr 30, 2006
No arguments about the situation being a mess Choco.

Rape as a tool of war is not without precedent - it is still being used in Uganda by rebels, and was used in the Bosnian war (so much so that there are significant numbers of children born as a result), the japanese had sex slaves in ww2 etc etc.

The situation in South Africa is crime related and compounded by the rampant HIV infection rate there.

At the end of the day though, we all seem to be condeming the killing of innocents in Iraq and all other reported abuses of civilians.
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Posted Apr 30, 2006
The fact that Lionheart praises insurgents - who have killed many muslim men, women and children indiscriminately as well as troops of various nationalities and hacked off the heads of hostages - speaks volumes about his warped views. These people use terror against locals trying to go about their daily lives and want anarchy, death and destruction in that country when the overwhelming majority of ordinary people just seek peace and stable government.

Do you really think the ordinary Iraqi people support the terrorists who blow up those attending markets or going to pray? Do you think the families of the many policemen murdered think "What a good, honourable job these insurgents are doing". Shame on you Lionheart. You are a disgrace.

Peddling your propaganda is one thing but praising those who kill people you say are your brothers is an abomination.
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Posted Apr 30, 2006
GoodBai wrote:The fact that Lionheart praises insurgents - who have killed many muslim men, women and children indiscriminately as well as troops of various nationalities and hacked off the heads of hostages - speaks volumes about his warped views. These people use terror against locals trying to go about their daily lives and want anarchy, death and destruction in that country when the overwhelming majority of ordinary people just seek peace and stable government.

Do you really think the ordinary Iraqi people support the terrorists who blow up those attending markets or going to pray? Do you think the families of the many policemen murdered think "What a good, honourable job these insurgents are doing". Shame on you Lionheart. You are a disgrace.

Peddling your propaganda is one thing but praising those who kill people you say are your brothers is an abomination.



Insurgents target police and the so-called Iraqi puppet army who they see as traitors like anyone who was imposed on police and army would see. The Insurgents have never deliberately targeted or beheaded any Iraqis... the insurgents who have targeted and killed fellow Iraqis have been condemned by most insurgents groups in Iraq. Unfortunately the insugents in Iraq don't have the media to spread propoganda like Americans and Britians have.


GoodBia...You talk about view beheading committed by masked man calling themself insurgents...but you seem to ignore the thousands Iraqis the American kill in their deliberate bombings, their sweeps thorough villages, example the little girl who witnessed her whole family being wiped by American GIA's...but I guess the beheading of one foriegn contracter by masked man is more important than the killing and raping of thousands of Iraqis. The beheadings are terrible and sad, but the same way you feel sympathy for the beheadings of view foriegner in Iraq, I feel more sympathy for the thousands of Iraqis that die at the hand or occuppier that you don't hear in your local news.



[qoute]These people use terror against locals trying to go about their daily lives and want anarchy, death and destruction in that country when the overwhelming majority of ordinary people just seek peace and stable government.[/qoute]

I'm sorry but you been watching too much CNN, FOX, and the rest of crap televised to Americans...Iraqis are more terrorified and violated by the Americans who bomb them, rape them, arrest their man without reason, terrorize their children everyday. If anything the insurgents whether they be Sunni or Mahdi insurgents, they are the only real protection Iraqis have against Americans and puppet Police/military force, which have excuted more innocent Iraqis than any of the insurgent groups.


[qoute]Do you really think the ordinary Iraqi people support the terrorists who blow up those attending markets or going to pray? Do you think the families of the many policemen murdered think "What a good, honourable job these insurgents are doing". Shame on you Lionheart. You are a disgrace.[/qoute]


The insurgents are oridinary Iraqis, the same way the Vietcongs were oridinary Vietnamese forced to fight against foriegn invaders. i don't think the insurgents goal is target Iraqis, matter fact no insurgent has taken credit for the bombing of the shrine, they have condemned the bombings of market place and the bombings of masjids. The bombings in the market place and shrine are the work of the Americans/British occuppiers who want a civil war or Iraqi public opinion against the insurgents... I think a month ago I posted the story of the British soliders who cought planting car bombs in Basra. If these soliders succeed in their plan and the car bombs went of in Basra market, the media immediately lay blame at the insurgents, even though the occuppier planted it. The Iraqi Police and Military have killed excuted more Iraqis than any of the insurgents...Iraqi puppet police and military are tools of the occuppiers to oppress the Iraqi people, so they are fair target in the eyes of the insurgents. The American revolutionaries who fought for the their independent used to kill traitors who worked for the British imperlist...The Vietcongs used to kill the Southern Vietnamese who aided the Foriegn force... so why is it different when insurgents target the traitor who aid American/British occuppiers.



[qoute]Peddling your propaganda is one thing but praising those who kill people you say are your brothers is an abomination[/qoute]


I'm supporting my brothers who fighting for their rights, land and their people. Whatever you say about them to me is propoganda in the same manner whatever I say about the occuppier is propoganda to you.


In Iraq the only terrorists are American/British soliders....
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Chocoholic wrote:Lionheart once again your opinion is biased in propaganda and unwilling to see another side of the issue.

Go and read the book BRavo Two Zero, and see what horrible things were done to captured RAF pilots in the first Gulf War - in the name of interogation, of which torture and mistreatment is an integral part - why do you think military personal go through rigorous training and told not to say anything apaprt from name rank and serial number - and wake up it happens on both sides, what you expect these things not to happen in a state of war, how completely naive of you.

It's not right on either side, but it happens non the less.



Choco.... Like Iraqi doctors who treated her said, any rape or trauma would have killed her. Besides she herself admitted that she was unconscious the whole time until she was treated, so how did she remember rape she couldn't even remember how she got to the hospital??




"We only had a few minutes to save her life, we found a vein in her neck to give her fluids and blood," Dr Shwail told Reuters at his home in Nassiriya. "It was our duty to look after her and we did. Now people are saying she was raped, it pains us. The thought did not cross my mind.

"Her injuries were consistent with severe trauma, a car crash, nothing else."

Mahdi Khafazi, who operated on Ms Lynch's fractured right femur, said he had cleaned her body before surgery: "I examined her very carefully. I cleaned her body including her genitalia. She had no sign of raping or sodomising."

A fun assault of that nature, he said, would have killed her: "If she had been raped there is no way she could have survived it. She was fighting for her life, her body was broken. What sort of an animal would even think of that?"




[qoute]and wake up it happens on both sides, what you expect these things not to happen in a state of war, how completely naive of you.[/qoute]

So far Iraqi insurgent or solider before have not raped American/British female soliders they captured. By saying this happens both sides you are justifying the Iraqi woman who have been raped by American soliders...but this is nothing new American service man who have been raping woman every country they been to. If you thing this propoganda please look into Japan, South Korea, off course Vietnam, Somalia, and know Iraq. American female soliders are million times more likely to get raped by AMerican solider than Iraqi capture.
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Lionheart - in regards to the insurgency, what people are referring to in terms of terrorising the population are the bombings of civilians and religious shrines.

The attacks on Shia targets can't be viewed as anti-US. What are your views on this?

Women and children were killed by 'insurgents' according to reports we see on the media.

I agree with you though, that the reporting of Iraqi civilian deaths isn't given as much prominence as a european hostage killing, but that is the nature of reporting - image sells.
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Posted May 01, 2006
shafique wrote:Lionheart - in regards to the insurgency, what people are referring to in terms of terrorising the population are the bombings of civilians and religious shrines.

The attacks on Shia targets can't be viewed as anti-US. What are your views on this?

Women and children were killed by 'insurgents' according to reports we see on the media.

I agree with you though, that the reporting of Iraqi civilian deaths isn't given as much prominence as a european hostage killing, but that is the nature of reporting - image sells.


If insurgent groups in Iraq bombed the Shrine they would have taken credit for it like he the bombs of police stations, but no insurgents group so far has taken credit for the attack on the Shrine...what do the insurgents gain from targeting the shrine and Iraqi people other than give the Americans some more reason to stay. I know not all insurgents groups are playing by the rule, that some of them are targeting civilians either by deliberate or by mistake, I don't know. But the fast majority of the insurgent groups in Iraq are not targeting the Iraq civilians or masjid.


[qoute]The attacks on Shia targets can't be viewed as anti-US. What are your views on this?[/qoute]

I'm against any attack against shia muslim civilians...the same way I'm against any attack against Sunni muslim civilians in Iraq. The occuppier created this atmosphere of dividing Iraq into Shia, Sunni, Kurd and Chrisitan Iraqis, because its easier to rule and conquer people when they are divided....But I hope Iraqis could see thorough this deception and realize that their interest is unity.


[qoute]Women and children were killed by 'insurgents' according to reports we see on the media.[/qoute]

Insurgents have killed woman and children accidently when they were targeting the Iraqi police or Army... But I don't think they would target a old lady or children purposely, the same way American GIA's who have connection or feelings for Iraqis would.
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Lionheart, coaltion military personnel do not target women and children. They target men who are involved in insurgent activities. Both insurgents and coalition forces have killed women and children because they happened to be in the line of fire.

You cannot say for sure that Muslim men wouldn't rape female coalition soldiers. It seems to me that there are Muslim men think that Western women are so loose and deserve s.e.xual abuse. Look at the group of Emirati men who kidnapped and raped the British flight attendant. In Finland there was a group of Somali guys who dragged a woman off and raped her in a park while her baby sat in its carriage. I can get propositioned in Dubai just by waiting for a taxi on the street after a doctor's appointment in the middle of the day! Being Muslim doesn't deter these men from engaging in horrific behaviour. How do you know there aren't some insurgents who want revenge for Iraqi women killed and abused? Do you suddenly speak for all insurgents and can you vouch for their character?

You know what, I can vouch for insurgents' lack of character. There is no honour in destabilising a country - it is bad enough that coalition forces went in in the first place. Who are the insurgents to say that everyday Iraqis who volunteer for a police force are "puppets" who deserve to be blown up? Many of the insurgents aren't Iraqi and they seem to have their own agenda. What makes them any different that coalition forces who aren't Iraqi and are pushing forward their own agenda? Let me guess, because they are Arabs and Muslims? Now that is a pretty stupid reason. The fact that you even justify insurgents' behaviour is a disgrace Lionheart.
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Lionheart, I disagree with you saying that allied forces have caused the conflict between the various factions, these guys just needed and excuse that's all! They've been at it for years and now they just want to cause unrest and civil war.

Yesterday the Iraqi President met with seven of the different groups in a bid to get them to lay down their arms - it's a move in the right direction.
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Posted May 01, 2006
A stable and prosperous Iraq which is ruled by its own people and not puppet regimes is the ONLY way to liberate the land of the foreign forces led by the US and the UK.

Armed conflict is not working at this stage because ordinary Iraqis are sufering more.

Copying the Palestinian model is simply not working here because of the geopolitical situation in Iraq.
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