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gosh that is just ing i didnt know that women were raped by americans
i saw those pics on tv where that demented american woman was posing infront of naked prisoners.
i didnt know there where more how come they didnt show this in the media

neways

muslims all around the world are in the worst state ever, we brought this on our selves, we need good and brave leaders, we dont need leaders who kiss american arse.

Actually Shafique, every time there are bombings or military actions, the civilian and other deaths are reported in the news. I am always seeing and reading news reports daily about how many people have been killed in Iraq. They may not be 100% accurate about numbers and are only reporting violent deaths, not other deaths that happen behind the scenes but are related to current instability in Iraq, but they are reporting deaths daily. Hostage situations are more dramatic because everyone waits to see if the hostage will be killed or released etc. You cannot compare the two kinds of news, because hostage taking is a continuing news story until the hostage is released or killed, while reporting on deaths is not.

Kanelli, I understand your point about the different nature of hostages and Iraqi civilians - if you read my point I was just conceding the fact that the media reporting gives the former more prominence, and I ended by saying that this is the nature of reporting.

One thing that does stick in the throat though is the difference in reporting of casualties in Palestine and Israel.

There are hardly any footage or pictures of the scene of Palestinian women and children killed, or their houses bulldozed etc. The recent suicide bombing in Israel was preceded by the killing of women and children in an artillery attack by Israel... I don't recall seeing any footage of the Palestinians suffering.. but by contrast we all remember the footage in Israel.

They even go so far as to mention the names of the people killed inside Israel... But when its a Palestinian, well the descriptor of girl, boy, man, woman or militant is used...

Very personal when it comes to an Israeli and impersonal for an Arab.... Thats not right.

True, guys, I have seen that sometimes, but not all the time. I have seen documentaries and news stories on BBC and elsewhere about the plight of the Palestinians, and also news reports that talk about the Palestinians killed - their names, pictures of them and interviews with the family.

Unfortunately, in places where so much killing is going on, they seem to only report numbers killed and injured and basic details. People are becoming immune to the bad news because there is just too much of it. To be honest, it is the same way with the hostage taking. When I hear about it now I think, "Oh, another hostage taking. What's the weather today." Sad, but I'm being honest.

u know, guys, i used to work with US air force back home and i came to realise that most of them were very ignorant, not all, i have to say there are a good number of well educated and nice ones, but there are some who never been out of their little town, who are stuck only with their own culture and disregard everything else. So, it is not hard to tell them something is bad and they will go believe in it. When the war in Iraq started, I remember how ppl in military were reacting, remember what my ppl thought of Americans going to Iraq. There were some military guys who were against the war, but that was their job, they were military, so, they would try to talk to their troops sayng that not all that government does or says is the right thing, do not get influensed by that. But there were ones who were all for the war, I even remember one of the guys was like, if not for this war, u would not have a job that is so well paid, can u believe it, yeah, i knew that i had a well paid job coz of the war, but it is wrong to thank the war for jobs or money it is bringing.
anyway, when the bombing in Iraq began, the whole office i was in (GIs) came in front of the TV and, man, they were happy seeing bombing, like it was fireworks, u know, most of the mililtary do not actually go to the war and fight, most of them stay at their desks and do their jobs, but they all were like, yeah, that's what they get for messing with us. U know, that was horrible how they were happy the war began.
When those videos started coming up online, about the ppl held in jails, tortured and raped by US troops all of the GIs of course were saying it was wrong to do so, but I know some of them, if they were in Iraq could have done the same.
They have rapes happen within military, so, what to talk about raping women from Iraq who they consider to be their enemies.
This is an endless topic, rapes by GIs happened in other countries where they are based without any wars, u should know that some of those guys came to military, coz that was the only thing they could do to have something in this life, I am not defending them, just trying to have ppl understand what kinda ppl are in military. NOT ALL, though.

[quote="kanelli"]Lionheart, coaltion military personnel do not target women and children. They target men who are involved in insurgent activities. Both insurgents and coalition forces have killed women and children because they happened to be in the line of fire.

You cannot say for sure that Muslim men wouldn't rape female coalition soldiers. It seems to me that there are Muslim men think that Western women are so loose and deserve s.e.xual abuse. Look at the group of Emirati men who kidnapped and raped the British flight attendant. In Finland there was a group of Somali guys who dragged a woman off and raped her in a park while her baby sat in its carriage. I can get propositioned in Dubai just by waiting for a taxi on the street after a doctor's appointment in the middle of the day! Being Muslim doesn't deter these men from engaging in horrific behaviour. How do you know there aren't some insurgents who want revenge for Iraqi women killed and abused? Do you suddenly speak for all insurgents and can you vouch for their character?

You know what, I can vouch for insurgents' lack of character. There is no honour in destabilising a country - it is bad enough that coalition forces went in in the first place. Who are the insurgents to say that everyday Iraqis who volunteer for a police force are "puppets" who deserve to be blown up? Many of the insurgents aren't Iraqi and they seem to have their own agenda. What makes them any different that coalition forces who aren't Iraqi and are pushing forward their own agenda? Let me guessLionheart.[/,bThe fact that you even justify insurgents' behaviour is a disgrace quote]



[qoute]Lionheart, coaltion military personnel do not target women and children. They target men who are involved in insurgent activities. Both insurgents and coalition forces have killed women and children because they happened to be in the line of fire.[/qoute]

Like said before American soliders have no feeling or connection to Iraqis, when they drop bombs over Bagdad they celebrate like they are playing video game, Iraqi lifes like the lifes of Vietcongs is not worth anything to American GI who has been programed to hate, kill, rape his enemy. American soliders feeling toward Iraqis is the same way Bin Laden gang feels toward Americans.

[qoute]You cannot say for sure that Muslim men wouldn't rape female coalition soldiers. It seems to me that there are Muslim men think that Western women are so loose and deserve s.e.xual abuse. Look at the group of Emirati men who kidnapped and raped the British flight attendant. In Finland there was a group of Somali guys who dragged a woman off and raped her in a park while her baby sat in its carriage. I can get propositioned in Dubai just by waiting for a taxi on the street after a doctor's appointment in the middle of the day! Being Muslim doesn't deter these men from engaging in horrific behaviour. How do you know there aren't some insurgents who want revenge for Iraqi women killed and abused? Do you suddenly speak for all insurgents and can you vouch for their character?[/qoute]


We went from talking about Iraqi insurgents conduct and Occuppiers conduct, to muslims around the world raping Western woman. What does horny spoiled Emirate raping Western Flight attender or horny Somali thugs raping Finnish girl have to do with Iraqi Insurgents who havent raped any of their female hostages, unlike American who raped the female Iraqi hostages they captured. Muslim man are human and are capable of rape, but in Iraqi and in Afghanisgtan there has not been a case were female hostage has been raped. For example the taliban who the west sees as the most abusive regime toward woman captured the English female journalist Ridley just a week before the bombing in Afghanistan started... The Taliban could have raped her beaten her like Americans, but they didn't anything to her...For a month or two she was their hostage... no Taliban or any other Afghan tried to rape her.


It was okey for Mujihadeens from Indonesia, Pakistan, Morroco, Algeria, Senegal, Ethiopia, Yemen, Saud Arabia, Syria, Etc to go to Afghanistan to fight against Russian occuppation in Afghanistan...But Today its not okey for Syrians, Jordanian and Saudis to fight alongside their tribal brothers in Western Iraq.

What makes the Jordanians, Syrians and Saudis fighting Iraq different from the coalition force is that the coalition force crossed a whole ocean to invade Iraq for its mineral riches and the protection of Isreal not Iraqis. The Jordanians/Syrians/Saudis most came to Iraq to aid their tribal brothers who have been invaded by foriegn enemies....but there are also some who came to Iraq for more sinister motivations.


Why do I justify or support the actions of the insurgent groups?

I don't justify all the action committed by the insurgents... example I'm against bombs near any populated..even if the target is police or the army.... I'm against the beheadings and kidnapping of foriegn journalist...even if they work for Fox or CNN...

I support the insurgents because they are fighting for a just cause...they are fighting against a foriegn enemies determined to install people they can controll and manupulate. I don't think the British/ American people would tolerate another country invading their land and install puppets who serve the interest of the invaders. I think just like the insurgents in Iraq the American and British people would fight to liberate their land... Of course the invaders would call them terrorists, thugs, etc..anything to discredit them in the eyes of their people and people around the world.

Further to my comments yesterday about the reporting of casualties in Palestine and Israel, today the BBC is reporting the details of a Palestinian mother that was killed in a shooting. The Israeli army has apologised for what it calls a mistake.

I hope that this trend will continue - taking care not to kill women and children. Cynics may say that in this case the killing was one they could hardly hide or conceal or justify - the irony is that more innocents are killed by artillery fire and we hardly see any apologies for innocents killed in these shellings.

The tragedy is that these killings just perpetuate the violence.

i never wished death for anyone, but i will say : MAY GOD HELL THEM ALL, AND BEFORE HELL I WISH THEM TO SUFFER 100 times more the pain they caused!
desgusting, simply horrible.
the shit thing is that most of people dont know all this, have not seen this pics, otherwise they will stop cheerleading for bush gov. and the so called "peace and eliberateing missions"!

damn those pics are sick. there r sick ppl both in american and iraqi sides. during Gulf war, iraqis had done worst to kuwaitis there. either way it is ing.....

When USA army came to ((Freed)) Iraq from the (Dectator regime) and his soldires and leaders have been doing and practicing as same as wt was the (Dectator regime) doing, then I can say F*?*?*K both of them.

**May these yanks and brits burn in hell for their sins against humanity**

its really very sad.................but what's the reason behind it?????

Think abt it

arniegang wrote:Liban i would totally agree with you how ing and disgraceful those pictures are.

But i have to also agree with K. You must remember Liban the same thinng happen to many Kuwait women when Saddams troops invaded Kuwait.

Like K, i am not saying any of it is "right", its just that this sort of digusting behaviour it isn't exclusive to the American Army.

Actually these were lies and I'm surprised (well, not really) that you still don't know that the atrocity claims of Kuwait and the US against Iraq were false! It's a well known fact, it is not secret! Though as usual many Americans (and I guess some Brits) still cling to those false rumors for lack of information and/or lack of interest. The investigative reporting program 60 Minutes did an excellent expose on these false US/Kuwaiti claims years ago. It exposed false testimonies of Kuwaiti officials who admitted that they had lied. Past US administration people also admitted to lying, and some of them even came out with their books in which they cleared things up. And check out Hill Knowlton - the US and Kuwait used the services of this public relations firm to spin the completely false reports of Iraqi atrocities in Kuwait.

kanelli wrote:As far as I know, there was no confirmation of rape in any of the reports of female soldier captives. Either they were unconscious and don't remember, and/or the doctors say there was no evidence of rape.

There are far fewer female soldiers or kidnap victims in Iraq to be s.e.x.ually abused, so I don't think that anyone should conclude that it wouldn't happen if there were more men exposed to more opportunity. Men are men after all.

I think that everyone has agreed that rape and torture is wrong, no matter who does it.

I'd also like to point out that it wasn't just the US who was supporting Iraq and Saddam for strategic purposes. So pointing the finger solely at the US as being indirectly responsible for atrocities commited by the Baath party is not really fair. There are so many excuses given when the simple fact is that Saddam Hussein was a monster who set up his own kind of rule that was mainly responsible for the atrocities. Iraqis raped and tortured their own people and the US was not telling them to do it, it was Saddam and the Baath party.

No one is denying the fact that Saddam was a monster, that isn't the point. The point is that the US did support him for many years, atrocities and all, until he rebelled and wanted to do things his own way. Saddam was not going to be the puppet with oil that the KSA monarchy was and is...so he had to be eliminated. The truly ing thing is how self-righteous the US admin paints itself to be. That they insult our intelligence to such a degree and tell us that they're fighting for Iraqi freedom is maddening. That they're still there in a human chaos that they've helped create, is criminal.

You're right, the US was not alone in supporting Saddam's regime in one way or another. European companies secretly dealt with Saddam to benefit from oil schemes. Some US companies also dealt with Iraq through proxies. But the US was the most involved, the country who had planned an Iraqi invasion years ago - excuse or not - the one that would benefit more from Iraqi oil and the one that has been more hypocritical in stating their reasons for this war than any other country. I would much rather hear GWB state that his country is in Iraq for control of its oil than hear him state that they're there for democracy's sake. Unless some of you actually enjoyed being lied to, I don't see why you get all worked up about these types of criticisms...

One more thing, these US military incidents are NOT rare. If you've been reading Amnesty International documents and keeping up with the news, you will surely know that these types of abuses are indeed routine.

stop whinging you sandgiggers would be still living in the trees if it were not for the AMERICANS/ENGLISH and i have photos of R8ghead living in a tree in the uae

You must be misinformed, this is the desert, we ain't got no trees Mr & Mrs Idiot was it

Living in trees - surely you're thinking of white people. Tarzan and Swiss Family Robinson all lived in trees

shafique wrote:Living in trees - surely you're thinking of white people. Tarzan and Swiss Family Robinson all lived in trees

Very True..... But they were not living in cardboard boxs up in the trees like you ppl.

People living in cardboard boxes...like on the American skid rows?

sage & onion wrote:You must be misinformed, this is the desert, we ain't got no trees Mr & Mrs Idiot was it

.
.

Sorry to correct you but there are a few trees in the desert and this one was in "Baraimi" by the road side with his bicycle at the base of the tree.( until one night somebody stole the bicycle )

i am discusted ,these pictures just ruined my day .. i think rape is the ugliest crime ever ... these army soldiers are pigs they are not even humanbeings... i am ed with humanity

Mr & Mrs Inquirer wrote:

shafique wrote:Living in trees - surely you're thinking of white people. Tarzan and Swiss Family Robinson all lived in trees

Very True..... But they were not living in cardboard boxs up in the trees like you ppl.

and u stupid ,why dont u find a wall and bang ur head on it till u drop dead and shut the hell up

Corcovado wrote:

Mr & Mrs Inquirer wrote:

shafique wrote:Living in trees - surely you're thinking of white people. Tarzan and Swiss Family Robinson all lived in trees

Very True..... But they were not living in cardboard boxs up in the trees like you ppl.

and u stupid ,why dont u find a wall and bang ur head on it till u drop dead and shut the hell up

is this a new Arrab thing a new type of La lapidation ( u find a wall and bang ur head on it till u drop dead ):D

I had forgotten that Arab and Muslim men never rape women. It is only the Evil West that does it.

Also, I had forgotten that only companies in the Evil West had done business with Saddam - none of the Arab or Muslim countries and their companies ever dealt with Saddam. I'm sure I saw their protests about him and how they stood together by ending diplomatic and business ties with him during all of those years.

Believe me, no entity is more to blame for rape, torture, and murder through the history of Iraq than the Evil West. Everyone else can be absolved from responsibility. After all, the Evil West made them do it.

(Please read with dripping sarcastic tone.)

It would actually be informative to look at the relative rates of crimes against women by countries.

The UK and US, for example, have charities working towards highlighting the plight of crimes against women and say that perhaps the real number of crimes is 2 or 3 times those that are reported.

Per-capita, there are more se>< crimes in the 'evil west', as Kanelli puts it, than in Arab and Muslim states. Take into Paedophillia and the situation is much worse for 'West vs East' comparisons.

Women should be free and shouldn't be oppressed - and in the most populous Muslim countries around the world there seems to be the right balance between women's rights and non-objectification of women. I am thinking of the biggest muslim country in the world - Indonesia, and the other big countries such as Malaysia and even Iran (yes Iran) - where women form an integral part of all roles in society from Government to Education to Healthcare, and where interestingly there is less se>< against women in these countries when compared with the UK, US and Europe.

Please let us not confuse the minority 'muslim countries' which are more reflections of cultural misogyny which Islam denouces with the majority of Muslim nations who afford their women more security than is found in the 'Evil West'.

Kanelli - there is also a quote that says 'sarcasm is the lowest form of wit' - but I don't subscribe to this, given my quote about Tarzan being a white man!

Cheers,
Shafique

shafique wrote:It would actually be informative to look at the relative rates of crimes against women by countries.

The UK and US, for example, have charities working towards highlighting the plight of crimes against women and say that perhaps the real number of crimes is 2 or 3 times those that are reported.

Per-capita, there are more se>< crimes in the 'evil west', as Kanelli puts it, than in Arab and Muslim states. Take into Paedophillia and the situation is much worse for 'West vs East' comparisons.

I don't know but I get the feeling that in the "evil-west" women would feel more free to report spousal abuse, physical abuse, date rape, etc. than in other countries were men have more rights than women (whether or not the religion says otherwise - I am refering to the practical and actual).

In any event, I would be interested in the "per-capita" statistics you refer to [hopefully not done by some biased media or research outlet from the 'evil-west" - did someone mentioned "sarcasm"? good thing I don't know how to spell it - I think this qualifies as double sarcasm (even lower!)]

Concord - there are issues with abuse against women around the world that transcend religion. Some of the worst cases of spousal abuse are actually found in pacific island communities.

If you do a Google search on crimes against women, rape etc you will find UN and WHO reports which document these crimes.

Ironically, women have been given rights in Islam 1500 years ago that weren't given to western women until last century - the right to own property, bear witness and divorce for example.

Se>< crimes are a different category - and looking narrowly at rape against women and paedophillia, I would contend you are safer as a woman or child in Indonesia, Iran or Malaysia (for example) than you are in the UK or US or even Sweden. Safer statistically I mean - based on my gut feeling only, but easily confirmed or disproved by looking at rates of rape and paedophillia.

I would think that a lady in Indonesia has as much freedom to do what she wants as a lady in Sweden, and has more safety.

Also, just based on what I've read (but not researched) the impression I have is Paedophillia is a peculiar 'evil-west' crime - again from a statistical point of view.

Cheers,
Shafique