For Shafique - Wife Beating In The Koran

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For shafique - Wife beating in the Koran Oct 29, 2009
The Koran gives the green light for Muslim husbands to beat their disobedient wives.

While this command is frowned upon in the West - where such a belief that one partner can use physical violence against another is rejected, let alone illegal, shafique is convinced that such a passage is actually not misogynist.

Here is the actual passage from the Koran (some translations insert 'lightly' into the passage where I am told that 'lightly', as in, to strike 'lightly', is not present.

Koran 4:34:

Men are the managers of the affairs of women for that God has preferred in bounty one of them over another, and for that they have expended of their property. Righteous women are therefore obedient, guarding the secret for God's guarding. And those you fear may be rebellious admonish; banish them to their couches, and beat them. If they then obey you, look not for any way against them; God is All-high, All-great.


Here is also a youtube video on the passage where the Islamic scholar says a husband can physically discipline his wife if he comes home from work and his wife is watching TV and has not prepared dinner, 3.30 mark (IIRC). lol!

Needless to say, the women on the panel weren't too happy with the passage or the explanation of when this passage can be applied.


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Re: For shafique - Wife beating in the Koran Oct 29, 2009
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event horizon
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Oct 30, 2009
As I've stated before, Muslims do not have the luxury that Christians have - we can't dismiss verses of our scriptures as fabrications inserted by women-hating Pauline Christians.

Therefore, God's commandments in the Quran are there for us to read and obey.

I'm sure Berrin will step in and quote copious amounts on God's commandments relating to treatment of women in Islam ;), and he may even compare and contrast the respective teachings of the Bible with that in the Quran. I'll just point to the fact that sceptics annotated Bible contains lists of misogynistic verses in the Bible and a similar list for the Quran.

This particular topic about what these verses mean - physical punishment as a last resort and not a licence to beat - has been discussed before and can easily be found in countless articles on the subject.

It is a favourite topic of the Islamophobes and Orientalists - and a great example of how selective quotes and misleading analyses are used to justify their quaint views.

Cheers,
Shafique
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Oct 30, 2009
This particular topic about what these verses mean - physical punishment as a last resort and not a licence to beat - has been discussed before and can easily be found in countless articles on the subject.


Thankfully, Western laws (afaik) don't see it this way - that beating your wife because she didn't make you dinner after you first warned her, makes the beating 'ok'.

What's really creepy is not that misogynist Muslims will believe in the verse in the Koran to beat their wives, but they'll actually use this argument to Westerners with (presumably) a straight face as if this line of reasoning does not make the passage any less disgusting.
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Oct 30, 2009
It is fascinating to see how an Islamophobe manifests their prejudice.

So you believe Quran allows a man to beat his wife for not making dinner, as long as he warns her a few times and then waits for a period, and then administers the punishment!!

How old are you? I'd hazard a guess you aren't married. [serious]

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Shafique
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Oct 30, 2009
So you believe Quran allows a man to beat his wife for not making dinner, as long as he warns her a few times and then waits for a period, and then administers the punishment!!


Did you watch the youtube video [serious]?
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Oct 30, 2009
Was my question difficult?

Do you really believe that the Quran teaches what you say it does on this subject?

Seriously, how old are you and are you married?

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Shafique
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Oct 30, 2009
Did you watch the youtube video?

Try watching it if you haven't:



The Muslim scholar makes the point that a husband can beat his wife if she doesn't make him food.
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Oct 30, 2009
Yes, I watched it - I've seen many Memri videos of the same ilk.

I asked you - how old are you and are you married.

It does have a bearing, for I'd only guess a young Islamophobe would argue that the Quran does indeed teach this - (but Islamophobes generally would believe MEMRI accounts as true or accurate portrayals).

But, to be fair, MEMRI has brought us some memorable comedic episodes from Egypt and the like - who can forget the 'breast feeding' fatwa!! ;)

Cheers,
Shafique
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Oct 30, 2009
Uh huh. Let me know when you have evidence this video was translated incorrectly.
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Oct 30, 2009
Are you ashamed of your age and the fact you aren't married?


I'm with the Muslim women on the panel on this one - they know the Quran as well as the guy, and he's expressing his opinion on how to implement this verse and what constitutes actions which merit physical discipline after verbal warnings.

I know many rednecks who wouldn't warn and would just beat - but I wouldn't use the misogynistic Biblical verses to justify this. The Bible says women need to obey the husband and this guys views about a woman needing to provide him with dinner could be lifted straight from the Bible.

But as I said, am I right in assuming that you are not married and still young?

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Shafique
shafique
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Oct 30, 2009
The Bible says women need to obey the husband and this guys views about a woman needing to provide him with dinner could be lifted straight from the Bible.


Those passages would also be seen as misogynist by Western standards. But the Koran takes it one step forward (or backwards actually) and says Muslim men can beat their wives if they are disobedient.

I side with the women on the panel and I totally reject this teaching from the Koran and I'm thankful most Muslims don't put this passage into practice.

BTW, under which circumstances is it 'ok' for a Muslim husband to beat his disobedient wife?

Secular law says that it is never permissible. So, therefore, the Koran and secular society/laws are incompatible.
event horizon
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Oct 30, 2009
I'm glad we agree that there are misogynistic passages in the Bible that can be used to justify wife beating.

If you do one of your usual google searches, you'll find many references to what Muslims believe is acceptable physical punishment for a husband to administer to a wife, and for what actions. Let us know if not providing dinner on an occasion fits the bill.

You could also do a search in this forum - its been discussed a few times here as well. There was a discussion on how big a stick was allowed to be used and how hard/lightly the beating was to be - with fatwas saying it needed to be light and shouldn't leave a mark, and that it should be done after a few warnings and after a period of time..

But I'm curious - why the hesitancy about your age and marital status?

Cheers,
Shafique
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Oct 30, 2009
I can see where shafique is coming from, yes of course the bible just like all religious texts can be twisted to meet your viewpoint.

The problem is your not comparing like to like, out here you have regular laws and then shariah laws. In the west you dont have this you just have secular law, ie protection of peoples rights property as an individual etc.

e.g the non islamic world can't believe why 'rape in marriage' is not a crime, but the muslim world says 'muslims dont do that so why would we need that law'.


the most interesting islamic discussion i have had have usually about comon ground between the koran/torah/bible.
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Oct 30, 2009
I agree that like must be compared with like.

I also agree that women's rights aren't at the levels they should be in some Muslim countries, and Shariah is used to justify these injustices.

The irony to me is that Islam introduced many aspects of women's rights 1500 years - like the right to divorce, own property, inherit etc - and much of what Islam is criticised for, was enshrined in European law not so long ago (eg not recognising marital rape).

Irony aside, one needs to judge a religious teachings holistically and not by selectively looking at the worst cases. Islam gives women the right to divorce and violence against the woman, encompassing marital rape, would be a valid reason. Interestingly, there is consensus that a man not fulfilling his marital duties in the bedroom is also cause for divorce - a scandalous notion in Europe for most of the past 2 millenia!

I also agree that there is a lack of comprehension between the non-Muslim world and the common view of what Shariah entails. It also flows the other way - the Muslim world is often baffled that what is celebrated as women's rights seems to amount to the right of women to be 'exploited' for the benefit of males outside of one's immediate family -eg. the freedom to wear high heels and short skirts in public is presented as liberating for women - I salute the men who persuaded women that this is the caes! ;)

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Shafique
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Oct 30, 2009
Sahfique - dont worry we laugh at the irony of womens freedom too.

The thing is tho - the big difference is that the woman is unshackled so she has the choice to act dress as she wishes.

I know qatar is more conservative than here, but my girlfriend can be mistaken for a local due to her pale skin and very black hair, and some woman was shouting at her in a toilet in arabic pointing at her head, for no headscarf, but when my gf showed puzzlement and spoke english, she disappeared.

Then the nursery she was workign in, the russian and phiilipinos dont wear head scarves but local teachers do. A male parent came in very angry demanding to know why the new aracbic girl wasn't wearng a headscarf and demanded to see my girlfriends passport.
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Oct 30, 2009
I'm actually part of the 'we' who is laughing at the irony - as I'm a Brit by nationality and therefore a 'Westerner'. I just happen to have a Muslim name and choose to follow the religion of Islam.

The ladies in my family don't wear the veil or 'burqa', and are dead against women being forced to do things against their will.

We've lived in enough countries to realise that cultural norms vary from place to place (duh?). I personally find Saudi a repressive police state and their attitude to women is a disgrace - but that is more political than religious.

Cheers,
Shafique
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Oct 30, 2009
Event Horizon, The verse you mention has been greatly misconceived by many people who focus merely on its surface meaning, taking it to allow wife beating……..

First, let’s remember that domestic violence is a universal issue. Despite the universality of domestic violence, Muslim men involved in wife abuse have attracted more attention than others. Their stories are highlighted in the media, giving the impression that this is an inherent part of Islam supported by the Qur’an, which of course is not true.
“How does anyone of you beat his wife as he beats the stallion camel and then embrace (sleep with) her?” This question was asked by the Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) more than 1,400 years ago. It is applicable today to all people of all faiths and cultures, considering the rates of domestic violence all over the world.

So before we elaborate, let us begin by agreeing on some important points:

There is a distinction between Islam and the behavior of individual Muslims. As in any law, creed, or faith, it is unfair to hold each and every Muslim as an official representative of the faith, perceiving his or her behavior as a reflection of Islamic teachings and assuming it is supported by the Qur’an. Individual behavior is nothing but a reflection of a human individual, who could be right or wrong, gentle or violent, pious or otherwise. If some individuals who happen to be Muslims misbehave, then this is their personal problem of bad manners or misinterpretation of the rules of their faith. It is not fair to allow their aggression to tarnish the image of a major world religion and all its millions of followers.

Islam honors and respects women. In fact, abundant evidence in the Qur’an and Sunnah assert the rights of women in words and deeds, giving them rights that promote and preserve their human dignity in all aspects of life and worship, so it is not logical that such a humane religion would encourage physical or psychological abuse of any sort against Muslims of either gender and of any age, race, or social status, much less against women.

Marriage in Islam is a sacred bond. In Islam, the marriage of a man and a woman is not just a financial and physical arrangement of living together, but a sacred contract, a gift from Allah, to lead a happy, enjoyable life and continue the human race. The relationship between the spouses as described in the Qur’an reflects equal rights and responsibilities, and it should be based on tranquility, love, and mercy. It is the duty of both husband and wife to be a source of comfort and tranquility for each other.

Allah says what means:
*{And among His Signs is this, that He created for you mates from among yourselves, that ye may dwell in tranquility with them, and He has put love and mercy between your [hearts]: verily in that are Signs for those who reflect.}* (Ar-Rum 30:21)

The Qur’an urges husbands to treat their wives with kindness. In the event of a family dispute, the Qur’an asks the husband to treat his wife kindly and not to overlook her positive aspects. Allah says what means:

*{Live with them on a footing of kindness and equity. If ye take a dislike to them it may be that ye dislike a thing, and Allah brings about through it a great deal of good.}* (An-Nisaa’ 4:19)

Islam is also against emotional abuse, not just physical abuse. Emotional abuse includes name calling, belittling, using threat of divorce as a weapon to manipulate the other, threatening with a real weapon (even with no intention of using it). Even frequent teasing, though it might start as fun, may become a type of abuse if it takes the form of sarcasm or demeaning remarks.

The Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) advised us to control our anger, not to call each other names, not to use vulgar language, and not to point a weapon at another person. This advice was general for all, but it should be taken even more seriously within a marriage.

Considering these main points, let’s now take a closer look at the particular verse you mentioned.

This verse has been greatly misconceived. Many people take it to allow wife beating, but this is not a correct interpretation of the verse. Islam is a whole system, so you cannot isolate one point without considering all other related issues. When the setting is not taken into account, it distorts and falsifies the original meaning. We should also keep in mind that the original Arabic wording of the Qur’an is the only authentic source of meaning. If one relies on the translation alone, one is likely to misunderstand it.

The Arabic verb daraba is better understood as “hit” rather than “beat” (which means repeated hard hitting, usually with something). The one verse in the Qur’an that mentions this—Surah 4:34—has to be read in its entirety and understood in Arabic.

Islam actually prohibits men from hitting women, except in one very limited case when the wife is continuously rebellious and disobedient—not when she disobeys one request—and only as a last resort after all else fails. The husband should first admonish her, then abandon her bed if she continues to be rebellious, and only if those steps have failed then he may hit, not beat, her. The earliest commentators understood that the hitting was to be light enough not to leave a mark and should be done with nothing bigger than a miswak (tooth stick).

Also, Muslims are instructed to follow the exemplary model of Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him), who was known to have never hit his wives, servants, or even an animal. Consequently, a Muslim husband does not have the right to beat his wife!

What is the definition of “rebellious” and disobedient”?

In Islam, while men and women have equal rights, those rights are not always identical. Islam intends the spouses to be complementary, not in rivalry, so there is a clear set of rights and responsibilities for each within the contract that rules the relationship. Islam stresses the importance of respecting contracts, most of all the marriage contract, which is described in the Qur’an as “mithaqan ghalithan” (a firm pledge).

Furthermore, there is no tyranny in an Islamic marriage. We are all told to conduct our affairs by mutual consultation, as the Qur’an states what means:

*{And those who respond to their Lord and keep up prayer, and their rule is to take counsel among themselves, and who spend out of what We have given them.}* (As-Shura 42:38]

So in marriage, the man is named responsible for protecting, decision-making, and breadwinning; in return he has a right to have a quiet, orderly home and a loving wife to come home to who doesn’t make his life difficult with constant bad temper, nagging, or aggressive attitude.

The woman is named skilled homemaker, loving mother, and faithful counselor; in return she has a right to be provided for fully by a caring, faithful, protective husband who honors her and respects her individuality. Both should be equally supportive, loving, and caring. Both merit respect and support from their partner.

As in any other contract, signing means that both parties agree to the terms and intend to adhere to the rules. So failing to fulfill one’s responsibilities is a breach of the contract and merits limiting or temporarily withholding a corresponding right until that one gets back within the boundaries of the contract, or else the contract is nullified.

So, for example, a wife who repeatedly and intentionally refuses to consult her husband and does things that damage the well-being of the family, or one who fails to do what they had agreed upon after consultation for no logical reason other than rebellion, or one who intentionally does what her husband hates just to make him angry, is certainly a type of woman who should be disciplined in order to preserve the peace and harmony of the Muslim home and the family members within it. This is, of course, assuming that the husband is continuously fulfilling his responsibility towards his wife and family but is not getting his fair rights in return, and that all other peaceful methods of resolving the dispute have failed.

Commenting on this issue, Dr. Muzammil H. Siddiqi, former president of the Islamic Society of North America, states:

While it is important that a wife recognizes the authority of her husband as the head of the household, the husband should also use his authority with respect and kindness towards his wife. If there arises any disagreement or dispute between them, then it should be resolved in a peaceful manner. Spouses should seek the counsel of their elders and other respectable family members and friends to patch up the rift and solve the differences.

However, in some cases a husband may use some light disciplinary action in order to correct the moral infraction of his wife, but this is only applicable in extreme cases and it should be resorted to if one is sure it would improve the situation. However, if there is a fear that it might worsen the relationship or may wreak havoc on him or the family, then he should avoid it completely.

The Qur’an is very clear on this issue. Almighty Allah says what means:

*{Men are the protectors and maintainers of women, because Allah has given the one more strength than the other, and because they support them from their means. Therefore the righteous women are devoutly obedient and guard in the husband’s absence what Allah would have them to guard. As to those women on whose part you fear disloyalty and ill-conduct, admonish them (first), (next), refuse to share their beds, (and last) beat them (lightly); but if they return to obedience, seek not against them means (of annoyance); for Allah is most High and Great (above you all). If you fear a breach between them twain, appoint (two) arbiters, one from his family and the other from hers. If they wish for peace, Allah will cause their reconciliation; for Allah has full knowledge and is acquainted with all things. }* (An-Nisaa’ 4:34-35)

It is important to read the section fully. One should not take part of the verse and use it to justify one’s own misconduct. This verse neither permits violence nor condones it. It guides us to ways to handle delicate family situations with care and wisdom. The word “beating” is used in the verse, but it does not mean physical abuse. The Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) explained it “dharban ghayra mubarrih,” which means “a light tap that leaves no mark.” He further said that face must be avoided. Some other scholars are of the view that it is no more than a light touch by siwak or toothbrush.

Generally, the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) used to discourage his followers from taking even this measure. He never hit any female, and he used to say that the best of men are those who do not hit their wives. In one hadith he expressed his extreme repulsion from this behavior and said, "How does anyone of you beat his wife as he beats the stallion camel and then embrace (sleep with) her?” (Al-Bukhari, English Translation, vol. 8, Hadith 68, pp. 42-43).

It is also important to note that even this “light strike” mentioned in the verse is not to be used to correct some minor problem, but it is permissible to resort to only in a situation of some serious moral misconduct when admonishing the wife fails, and avoiding sleeping with her would not help. If this disciplinary action can correct a situation and save the marriage, then one should use it.
Dr. Jamal Badawi, professor at Saint Mary’s University in Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada, and a cross-appointed faculty member in the Departments of Religious Studies and Management, adds this:
If the problem relates to the wife’s behavior, the husband may exhort her and appeal for reason. In most cases, this measure is likely to be sufficient. In cases where the problem persists, the husband may express his displeasure in another peaceful manner, by sleeping in a separate bed from hers. There are cases, however, in which a wife persists in bad habits and shows contempt of her husband and disregard for her marital obligations. Instead of divorce, the husband may resort to another measure that may save the marriage, at least in some cases. Such a measure is more accurately described as a gentle tap on the body, but never on the face, making it more of a symbolic measure than a punitive one.

The permissibility of such symbolic expression of the seriousness of continued refraction does not imply its desirability. In several hadiths, the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) discouraged this measure. Here are some of his sayings in this regard:

“Do not beat the female servants of Allah.”

“Some [women] visited my family complaining about their husbands [beating them]. These [husbands] are not the best of you.”

I hope this answer has addressed your concerns. Please let us know if you need more information, and please stay in touch. May Allah guide us all to what’s best.


http://www.readingislam.com/servlet/Sat ... 3996016760
Berrin
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Oct 30, 2009
Well actually event h. since you blame muslims and quran....I'd like you to study one nation where islam is not a religion and that beating or hitting wives has been abolished?...There are some good statistics out there but only for a shock of yourself..I warn you....

I'm sure Berrin will step in and quote copious amounts on God's commandments relating to treatment of women in Islam , and he may even compare and contrast the respective teachings of the Bible with that in the Quran. I'll just point to the fact that sceptics annotated Bible contains lists of misogynistic verses in the Bible and a similar list for the Quran.


Well of course..Would I ever miss the oppurtunity?...actually there is a study on the net- done very nicely to compare WOMEN IN ISLAM VERSUS WOMEN IN THE JUDAEO-CHRISTIAN TRADITION:

http://islamworld.net/docs/compwomen.html

Now I sit and pray event horizon reads it from top to bottom.
Berrin
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Oct 30, 2009
I'm glad we agree that there are misogynistic passages in the Bible that can be used to justify wife beating.


Please stop twisting my quotes. I said that contemporary Western society views the passages in the Bible for men to be the head of a household as sexist.

That's a far cry from the passage in the Koran that husbands should beat their disobedient wives.

If you do one of your usual google searches, you'll find many references to what Muslims believe is acceptable physical punishment for a husband to administer to a wife, and for what actions. Let us know if not providing dinner on an occasion fits the bill.


There goes your argument that the Koran is the ultimate authority and a complete textbook, I guess.

When you don't like scholarly rulings on waging jihad, you reject these in favor of your interpretation of the Koran, but when you can't find a passage of the Koran which supports your views, we must go outside of the Koran to properly understand the passage.

Unfortunately, the Koran claims that it is a complete book and its passages are clear. If Allah only wanted disobedient wives to be abused by their husbands with tooth brushes, I think Allah would have been competent enough to include this stipulation.

But that is besides the point, someone who abhors all forms of domestic violence would reject any novel and western friendly interpretation that makes wife beating somewhat less severe, although just as sexist and degrading.

There was a discussion on how big a stick was allowed to be used and how hard/lightly the beating was to be - with fatwas saying it needed to be light and shouldn't leave a mark, and that it should be done after a few warnings and after a period of time..


'nuff said.
event horizon
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Oct 31, 2009
event horizon wrote:
I'm glad we agree that there are misogynistic passages in the Bible that can be used to justify wife beating.


Please stop twisting my quotes. I said that contemporary Western society views the passages in the Bible for men to be the head of a household as sexist.


We do agree - thanks for clarifying.

The Bible contains sexist passages that can be used to justify the oppression of women. No arguments there.

I also agree that modern day Christians rightly choose to ignore these Biblical instructions.


This speaks more about the good common sense of modern day Christians than it does about the Bible and the misogynistic authors who inserted these false passages (according to Father O'Conner and other eminent Biblical scholars).


When comparing misogynistic verses in the Bible with those in the Quran - we see that you have to ignore far more Biblical verses than interpret Quranic ones. That's just a fact - and I'm glad you pointed out that most Christians rightly ignore the Biblical verses which are viewed as sexist.


I do actually condemn all forms of unjust violence - such as terrorism. You refuse to condemn Baruch Goldstein, the Jewish Terrorist. However, I also believe in capital punishment and have no problems in having punishments as part of an overall justice system.

I understand that some Christians also choose to ignore God's laws concerning capital punishment - but those who believe that God was right also support capital punishment as something that benefits society.

The Bible actually says
"He who spareth the rod hateth his son: but he that loveth him correcteth him betimes" (Proverbs 13:24)

(Commonly paraphrased, spare the rod, spoil the child)

Cheers,
Shafique
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Oct 31, 2009
Shafique, totally agree with you. Islam treats women as if they are children and are in need of physical discipline if they are disobedient to their husbands.

Good point and it was something I had thought of earlier in the day.
event horizon
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Oct 31, 2009
It's always good to find points of agreement - even imaginary ones :)

You can test out your theories about women when you get married - I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and will assume you've passed puberty. ;)

Did your parents spare the rod, perchance?

But seriously - thanks for posting the video clip from Memri showing what the Muslim women think of the guy's views - why not take their views as representative of Islamic teachings? Is perhaps that you are applying the Biblical notion that women should remain silent? ;)

Cheers,
Shafique
shafique
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Oct 31, 2009
But seriously - thanks for posting the video clip from Memri showing what the Muslim women


There were three women on the panel with one woman wearing Islamic garb. Do you have any evidence that the other two were actually practicing Muslims or does this come from the same imagination that pontificated on the teachings of the Talmud without actually having read a single page of that text?

Furthermore, what part in the clip do you think suggests that those two women were only objecting to that man's interpretation of the Koran (and if you watch the clip, one of the women says this is actually widespread in the Arab world, saying that husbands use cables to beat their wives and giving a name for this practice) as opposed to rejecting this verse altogether?

I have a hard time believing that these two women would have agreed to any explanation for when a husband can beat his disobedient wife - which is what the Koran says, but thanks again for showing that one must go outside of the Koran to understand its 'clear' passages.
event horizon
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Nov 01, 2009
So you think that all Muslim women are covered from head to toe? :shock:

That explains a lot.

As I said, you'll have a different perspective once you are old enough to date and especially when you get married!

I'm judging the women by what they said, and similarly judging the guy from what he said. Even with Memri's usual selective editing, you can see that the women don't agree with the guy and as I said, they know what the Quran says on the subject as well as that guy.

I'm not sure why you are now saying they are going outside of the Quran - is this another one of your imagined beliefs??

Cheers,
Shafique
shafique
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Nov 01, 2009
Do you think that all Muslim women are covered from head to toe?


Strange response. Obviously I would assume a woman wearing Muslim garb would be a Muslim. Do you have any reason to believe the other two women were Muslim, or was it because they were Arabs that you assumed they were Muslim?

I'm judging the women by what they said


What were their words that gave you the impression they approved of the Koranic instruction for husbands to beat/hit/slap with a toothbrush their disobedient wives?

I'm not sure why you are now saying they are going outside of the Quran - is this another one of your imagined beliefs??


Nope - I think the two women totally reject the Koran's misogynist passages for men to beat their wives if they are disobedient. I totally agree that more Muslims should not follow these instructions and I support laws in Muslim countries criminalizing spousal abuse - just like the trend in Muslim countries in making polygamy illegal and not allowing dirty old men to marry little girls.
event horizon
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Nov 01, 2009
So you assume the women weren't Muslim - because they weren't wearing 'muslim garb'.

That speaks volumes.

I presume then you think that the virgin Mary was Muslim because she wore a headscarf? ;)

It appears that you are projecting your views onto what the video is showing - a discussion amongst some Muslims over what the Quran teaches. I said I agree with the women and now you want to argue that the women aren't Muslim.

Hey - as I said, if you want to believe in Orientalist views of Islam - go ahead. If you think you know better than those informing you are wrong in your views (eg Prof Hans Kung, Father O'Conner etc etc) - then again, I salute your bravery and self-confidence.

I also salute the fact you have appointed yourself as an expert on the Quran and so resolutely believe your interpretations, even when you have shown that the Quran itself contradicts your interpretations.

Cheers,
Shafique
shafique
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Nov 01, 2009
Let's not forget that the panel discussion from 2004 was filmed in Qatar, was heavily edited by Memri, and only shows one of the men on the panel speaking (the others' comments are all edited out).

The man shown speaking in the Memri clip is a lawyer, not an Islamic scholar.

(Going by eh-oh's stereotypical view, the lawyer may be assumed by eh-oh to be a non-practising Muslim because he doesn't have a beard!)

Cheers,
Shafique
shafique
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Nov 01, 2009
So you assume the women weren't Muslim - because they weren't wearing 'muslim garb'.


Actually, I asked if you had any reason to assume the two women were Muslim.

I never made an assumption that these two women were or were not Muslim.

It helps to read.

Do you have any evidence that the other two were actually practicing Muslims


Once again, how did you come to the conclusion that these women were practicing Muslims? Do you think all Arabs are Muslims?

It would appear that you are fond of making assumptions and then accusing others of presuming something!

as I said, if you want to believe in Orientalist views of Islam


Oh yes, quoting misogynist passages from the Koran that instruct men to beat their wives if they are disobedient is 'orientalist spin'.

I wonder what copy/pasting talking points from a Qadiani missionary website is considered? Spin? Oh, wait...
event horizon
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Nov 01, 2009
I understand your frustration - you thought you had uncovered an Islamic expert who corroborated your view of Islam - but a youtube video edited by Memri and which has one lawyer giving his views about what constitutes 'discipline' rather than battery, is hardly conclusive evidence.

But hey - you seem to think that those who oppose his views must all be non-Muslims, whereas I didn't make that assumption.

You do know that Memri has a track record of misleading its viewers by selective editing and misquotes - don't you?

Cheers,
Shafique
shafique
Dubai Shadow Wolf
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