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Historically, the Council of Nicea was called to decide on what the Church should adopt as official doctrine on the nature of Jesus because there were differing views amongst the 'Hellenistic' Christians

The Council of Nicea was convened to decide the date of Easter.

At Nicea, the main debate was between Arius who argued that God was one, and Trinitarian Bishops who believed in the Trinity.

Arius believed Jesus was God.

From my perspective, the earliest 'Jewish Christians' who followed Judaic law and were circumcised etc and believed in one true God are the closest to Jesus' actual teachings rather that what is termed 'Pauline Christianity'.

You do realize that Paul followed Jewish Law, right?

(no, of course you didn't, but you'll probably claim you did)

I'll gladly add other questions to the list, as well as your latest attempt to rewrite history.. but first, let's hear your answer to the central question of this thread eh:

shafique wrote:Eh- I promise to answer your question above AFTER you've answered the question relevant to this thread's topic:

Eh - clarify one thing for me: Do you believe that if a person ONLY has faith that Jesus is saviour and that person does NOT do good works, he won't be saved? I've met Christians who say if you have faith you will be saved, regardless of whether you do good works. Is this your belief?

(Note that the related question about whether the Pope is the Anti-Christ is also waiting for you to answer)

Cheers,
Shafique

according to your post EH, Jesus didn't declare any of the above!

I agree with you, shafique certainly embarrassed himself (what else is new) trying to again pontificate on Christian history and theology.

I can't blame him for his distorted and incorrect views given that his 'research' consists of consulting professor google and missionary dot com websites.

However, it would be interesting to ponder how Muslims would treat a non-Muslim who came to the forum and made incorrect statements (such as seriously claiming the Koran was authored by Moses) on Islam and pretended to be an expert.

The one unique aspect of shafique is that there is no limit to the number of times he can be wrong on a subject until (if ever) he concedes he should do less lecturing and more reading (from reliable, academic sources) and listening from the people correcting his mistakes.

Nice try eh. But the questions still remain.

We'll tackle your imaginative delusions after you answer:

Eh - clarify one thing for me: Do you believe that if a person ONLY has faith that Jesus is saviour and that person does NOT do good works, he won't be saved? I've met Christians who say if you have faith you will be saved, regardless of whether you do good works. Is this your belief?

(Note that the related question about whether the Pope is the Anti-Christ is also waiting for you to answer)
[/quote]

Cheers,
Shafique

Eh - clarify one thing for me: Do you believe that if a person ONLY has faith that Jesus is saviour and that person does NOT do good works, he won't be saved? I've met Christians who say if you have faith you will be saved, regardless of whether you do good works. Is this your belief?

I believe the Bible is pretty clear; there will be Jews who do not have faith in Jesus and will be saved.

Well, blow me down with a feather - we have an answer, but unfortunately it doesn't address the question asked. I didn't ask whether ONLY Christians go to heaven (but it is interesting to note your answer to this un-asked question).

The question was actually over your belief concerning faith AND works - and whether a Christian who only believes but does not do good works goes to heaven.

(What is it with your comprehension skills these days eh?)

Eh - clarify one thing for me: Do you believe that if a person ONLY has faith that Jesus is saviour and that person does NOT do good works, he won't be saved? I've met Christians who say if you have faith you will be saved, regardless of whether you do good works. Is this your belief?

We can discuss the Biblical verses saying some Jews being saved some other time - this thread is about your belief over faith and works, and whether works are required or not.

Cheers,
Shafique

That the Bible is superior to the Koran? Yes, I agree. But let's look at what the Bible and Koran respectively say about who goes to hell.

We should determine if there are at least any quantitative differences between the hell fire passages and unbelievers in the Bible and Koran.

You really are having trouble reading these days aren't you? This thread isn't about random questions that you think I want answered, but specifically about your Christian belief over whether works and faith are requirements for salvation.

Eh - clarify one thing for me: Do you believe that if a person ONLY has faith that Jesus is saviour and that person does NOT do good works, he won't be saved? I've met Christians who say if you have faith you will be saved, regardless of whether you do good works. Is this your belief?

Your other random points can be dealt with later - as can the supplementary question about the belief that the Pope is the anti-christ. We can even examine why you believe in the Biblical talking donkeys! But first tackle this thread's topic.

Cheers,
Shafique

The aid acid test is that those with faith will do good works.

Your quote from Ephesians that you imagine contradicts Romans says that.

Are you embarrassed to state your Christian belief eh?

But I understand what you saying and understand why you are now embarrassed. The Christians who say that 'faith alone' will get you salvation are clearly wrong. You agree with me on this.

Faith and works are both required.

As God says in the Quran:

And give good tidings to those who believe and do righteous deeds that they will have gardens [in Paradise] beneath which rivers flow...

2.25

So, we can both correct the Christians who say that just believing is enough. Excellent.

That does mean that my question of a Christian who only believes in Christ but does not do good works, that person WILL NOT be saved, as you say a person with true faith will also do good works. Therefore not doing good works is an indication that they don't actually have true faith after all.

In other words, faith without works is dead.

Why it took you so long to agree with the Muslim understanding of the importance of righteous deeds is beyond me - you really should get beyond your embarrassment. Fantasising that God does not teach this in the Quran only makes you look foolish.

Cheers,
Shafique

The Koran is quite clear that Muslims are destined for Paradise regardless of their actions on earth.

We've also established that apostates from Islam are hell bound - also, regardless of their faith (in a new religion) and their works.

So, therefore, one cannot simply say that the Koran teaches that the way to heaven and hell is simply through works. It's mostly about believing in the message of Islam.

The Quran is indeed quite clear - you should read it.

As I said, I understand your embarrassment at your realisation that your belief contradicts Christians who say 'only faith alone' is required, and that it is in accordance with what God says in the Quran that both deeds and belief are required.

Setting up a strawman that any Muslim argues the 'works alone' is a requirement is a sign of your desperation.

But hey, God's words are clear - and quoted above. It's clear to anyone who reads the Quran that everyone will be judged according to their actions - especially Muslims. But hey, if you want to ignore what the Quran actually says, so be it.

Cheers,
Shafique

Allah's words are clear and clearly contradict what he says elsewhere.

If works and faith guarantee salvation, then apostates who perform good works and have faith in Christianity should also be guaranteed salvation.

But they're not, so the Koran contains a contradiction.

I suspect you don't address this point because you also realize the contradiction between the two verses.

Please explain to us what God says in 2.25 and explain to us why you're still confused over His clear message that faith and works are both required.

Cheers,
Shafique

Please explain if apostates with faith and who do good works are sent to hell or heaven.

First, let's be clear - Allah says clearly that BOTH faith and works are required. This is clear in 2.25 and other verses.

You're asking a slightly different question - do Apostates who fulfil the 'faith and works' criteria go to heaven, as promised in 2.62. Well, first note that 2.62 does not mention apostates.

On one level, you could argue that apostates have sinned and don't have faith, by definition, therefore the question is moot.

God says that Apostates will be punished by Him in the afterlife - therefore there is no contradiction.

However God also says that He is most forgiving and He is the final judge. So an apostate (from say a Wahabi sect) who does good, believes in one God etc may get to heaven according to 2.62 - if the apostacy is actually away from a perversion of Islam, then God will have mercy. God's mercy is mentioned many, many times in the Quran.

Incidentally - other sinners are also going to be judged by their actions. God also says that idol worship is a sin and is punishable - I believe the Bible also stipulates this.

So, in short - then YES it is possible that some apostates will be given God's mercy and will go to heaven. God does not say that all will definitely go to hell. The only sin that God says He won't forgive is idolatry - associating partners with God - everything else there is a chance of God's Mercy. If you read the Quran, this is clear.

Cheers,
Shafique

God does not say that all will definitely go to hell.

V2:217 reads to me (among others) that all apostates will be sent to hell for all times. How does it read to you?

On one level, you could argue that apostates have sinned and don't have faith, by definition, therefore the question is moot.

I've made sure that when I'm speaking of apostates, I'm referring to those apostates to Christianity/Judaism, etc that *do* have *faith* in their adopted religion. So, no. The question is not a moot point. The believer (apostate) is one with faith and works. Therefore, v2:62 & v2:217 are in contradiction *unless* v2:62 is only referring to those unbelievers (monotheists) who've never heard the message of Islam and will only be judged on two criteria.

v2.217 is quite clear on the subject:

..And whoever of you reverts from his religion [to disbelief] and dies while he is a disbeliever - for those, their deeds have become worthless in this world and the Hereafter, and those are the companions of the Fire, they will abide therein eternally.

vs 2.62

Indeed, those who believe and the Jews or Christians or Sabeans - those who believe in Allah and the Last Day and did righteousness - will have their reward with their Lord, and no fear will there be concerning them, nor will they grieve.

Apostates who die without faith violate the first of the 'Faith and Good Works' criteria. Apostates who don't die in disbelief but have fulfilled the criteria in 2.62 will have no fear.


See, if you actually read what God says in the Quran you will be less confused.

Cheers,
Shafique

A disbeliever is one who has heard and rejected the message of Islam.

Apostates, modern Christians and Jews all fall under the category of disbelievers.

Do you disagree?