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valkyrie wrote:well if a non circumsized man converts to Islam, wouldn't he have to get circumsized. ouch

And yes it is discrimination, if the man very religious or an athiest it would be an insult to have to convert/ subscribe to a set of beliefs that he doesn't care for.

Alina4u

Are you muslim? If so and you fell in love with a non muslim, why can't you just convert out of your religion. This is a double standard that exists in the muslim world. As Kanelli has said people of other faiths, or even other sects of Islam are routinely discriminated against. If you expect moderates in the west to not discriminate than surely you (muslims) need to do the same. Bahai's in Iran are sometimes hung yet I have never heard a muslim organization in the west or in the muslim world speak out against these injustices. They usually only speak out against one injustice in the middle east and that's zionism. The west will never take you seriously until muslims unequivicolly denounce muslim imperialism and discrimination against women, homose.xuals, religious minorities and even racism against non arabs as seen in Saudi and Sudan. Muslims nowadays only speak against zionism and bristle against any criticisms on Islam, thats to bad, your religion has its faults and the Koran needs to be updated for the 21st century.

Dear valkyrie,

you can diss me but not my religion, point out faults are coming from your point of view.....you have to realized that there are muslims in this forum and i am one of them who love his religion, i take great offence of that post for attacking sacred book of islam. We have our religion and there are many other religions in this world that other people follow.....
There are some points/subjects of islam that you need to search and understand why that point is allowed/prohibited before attacking.
What does zionism have to do with this thread anyway? Zionism is a political movement, what is it to do with marriage between a non muslim and a muslim?

"you can diss me but not my religion"

Why not? Muslims denigrate Judaism and Christianity. If I remember correctly the koran refers to Jews and Christians as apes and pigs. I won't tolerate intolerance, I'm as indignant of christian fascists who attack Homos.exuals as I am of Muslims.

valkyrie wrote:lol ....... religions can be changed but not race....ther are some religions like Judaism and Druzze that u cant even convert unless one of ur parents is from their religion. And yes there are muslims that protest against the conditions in muslim world but u rarely see published in paper. U have to c muslim world is not central organization , it is disperesed. And e did u read the Quran to say it to b changed? Cos as far as i know it hasnt been changed and isnt allowed o b changed until the day of judgement

There are many people who convert to Judaism. Where are these Muslims that you speak of? I notice that muslims usually refer to the wahabbis in Saudi as not real muslims, and the Taliban as not real muslims, and the Clerics in London who call for the deaths of non muslims as not real muslims. So my question is, who are the real muslims? Where are these groups that speak (routinely) against the honor killings in Iran (and Pakistan) and the killing of Bahai's. Could you show post their website? I'm sorry to say this, but even if there are a couple of muslim groups in the West that seek true equality between Homos.exuals and other alienated groups its just spitting in the wind.


religions can be changed but not race

Does that mean that you can convert out of Islam without being labelled an apostate?

Jeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeez... it seem scommon sense is not comon anymore these days......do u knwo what's the meaning of apostate or renegade? if a US GI leaves his army and joins al qaeda. Will US army open it's arms and accept him? No Similar way all major religions form hinduism to judaism and islam have their apostate... they have em in place cos they had to preserve their ideology......we are human beings only differing , bickering arguing over ideals and idea wheater it be politics, religion, race and other issues. Recently there was a bomb attack in a small muslim commuity in Mumbai, India http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/5330832.stm

read teh last paragraph:
But does it hurt to see no Muslim country came out to condemn the latest attacks on them?

so there u go they didnt evencondem attack against their own religion like in darfur - arabs muslims killing non-arab muslims (like christain allied killing christain axis).

val i guess u base ur entire understandign on internet alone .....reading top ten on google rankings ..no wonder u went to fuckfrance site which i wont even spit cos it's so rudimentary site with ppl with rudimentary minds! I suggest u read books from libraries written by both eastern and western authors so u can get balanced view...... or example I was so interested in history of Mongolian empire......especially when Hulagu destroyed the capitalbaghdad , there u can read amazing dialouges passed bet ween the caliph and king. Unfortunately i didnt get one book which contained complete dialogues so i had to read through 15 books and many articles to get complete picture of it. U can't dismiss all religions as crap....there was certain reason that it spread like fire...u may assume ppl those days were primitive minded but I belive there are certain things that dont change in human nature even after eons ahve passed.


As for the site which bashes muslims here is the site Muslim awake http://www.muslimwakeup.com/
This is one of the many community groups which is open minded - accepts h*mos*xuals , fights for equal rights for women and other stuffs......give it a visit

I am aware of Irshad Manji, and have read her book and visited that site in the past. Sadly most Muslims would condemn her for what she is doing, indeed even some leftists call her an agent provocateur.

As for FF.com, I was trolling that site and eventually was banned, so I don't know where you're getting at? Are you saying that I subscribe to the racist views on that site?

"No Similar way all major religions form hinduism to judaism and islam have their apostate"

Whatever makes you feel better. I'm unaware of Jews who leave their religion are subjected to being killed, tortured or even branded an apostate. Perhaps you could enlighten me? And I have read alot of books, most of them have been literary classics (War and Peace, The Sound of Fury, Twilight of the Idols, City of God)I'm not trying to toot my own horn but I do read for pleasure.

"Recently there was a bomb attack in a small muslim commuity in Mumbai, India"

Possibly perpetrated by Muslims

Mumbai, Sept. 10 (PTI): The explosive devices that killed 31 people in Malegaon possibly contained RDX and were "identical" to the bombs used in the blasts on commuter trains here on July 11, top police sources said here today.

"Not only are the devices used in the two attacks (in Malegaon and Mumbai) quite identical, and in the Malegaon blasts, the use of RDX is becoming evident," a top police official supervising the probe into the bombings told PTI here.

The forensic tests are now prompting investigators to probe the possibility of the perpetrators of the two attacks being the same persons or belonging to the same terrorist group, the sources said.

http://www.hindu.com/thehindu/holnus/00 ... 101615.htm

valkyrie wrote:"you can diss me but not my religion"

Why not? Muslims denigrate Judaism and Christianity. If I remember correctly the koran refers to Jews and Christians as apes and pigs. I won't tolerate intolerance, I'm as indignant of christian fascists who attack Homos.exuals as I am of Muslims.

So you spend your time find faults on all religions? If you disagree about a certain religion keep it to yourself? if you face people who are muslims that are constantly attacking...i mean day by day.....attacking other religions.....im not one of them? That does not give you the right to attack the quran and whats written in the quran, that includes muslims.

"you have a religion, and i have mine" lets keep it that way

Bleakus wrote:

valkyrie wrote:"you can diss me but not my religion"

Why not? Muslims denigrate Judaism and Christianity. If I remember correctly the koran refers to Jews and Christians as apes and pigs. I won't tolerate intolerance, I'm as indignant of christian fascists who attack Homos.exuals as I am of Muslims.

So you spend your time find faults on all religions? If you disagree about a certain religion keep it to yourself? if you face people who are muslims that are constantly attacking...i mean day by day.....attacking other religions.....im not one of them? That does not give you the right to attack the quran and whats written in the quran, that includes muslims.

"you have a religion, and i have mine" lets keep it that way

News to me. Why can't a secular athiest criticize religion? If it offends your sensibilities then you should have criticized Islam before western athiests had to step in. My foremost concern is Christianity, and after that religion is destroyed than western athiests will turn their attention to the Muslim world. If there is anything left of Islam, western athiests will unite with our eastern athiest comrades and help dismantle the mysoginist, patriarchal religion of Islam.

edit: Going back to the original topic, why can't a muslim woman marry a non muslim, but a muslim man can marry a non muslim woman?

valkyrie wrote:

Bleakus wrote:

valkyrie wrote:"you can diss me but not my religion"

Why not? Muslims denigrate Judaism and Christianity. If I remember correctly the koran refers to Jews and Christians as apes and pigs. I won't tolerate intolerance, I'm as indignant of christian fascists who attack Homos.exuals as I am of Muslims.

So you spend your time find faults on all religions? If you disagree about a certain religion keep it to yourself? if you face people who are muslims that are constantly attacking...i mean day by day.....attacking other religions.....im not one of them? That does not give you the right to attack the quran and whats written in the quran, that includes muslims.

"you have a religion, and i have mine" lets keep it that way

News to me. Why can't a secular athiest criticize religion? If it offends your sensibilities then you should have criticized Islam before western athiests had to step in. My foremost concern is Christianity, and after that religion is destroyed than western athiests will turn their attention to the Muslim world. If there is anything left of Islam, western athiests will unite with our eastern athiest comrades and help dismantle the mysoginist, patriarchal religion of Islam.

edit: Going back to the original topic, why can't a muslim woman marry a non muslim, but a muslim man can marry a non muslim woman?

Dude, instead of filling this thread with this argument, i will PM you my number, call me and we will discuss this, or we can open a different thread for this subject
I am interested in talking to you about this subject because your points are interesting and i might learn from you

Edit: I will come back to you as soon as possible for subject, gotta find out exactly why

valkyrie wrote:
"Recently there was a bomb attack in a small muslim commuity in Mumbai, India"

Possibly perpetrated by Muslims

Mumbai, Sept. 10 (PTI): The explosive devices that killed 31 people in Malegaon possibly contained RDX and were "identical" to the bombs used in the blasts on commuter trains here on July 11, top police sources said here today.

"Not only are the devices used in the two attacks (in Malegaon and Mumbai) quite identical, and in the Malegaon blasts, the use of RDX is becoming evident," a top police official supervising the probe into the bombings told PTI here.

The forensic tests are now prompting investigators to probe the possibility of the perpetrators of the two attacks being the same persons or belonging to the same terrorist group, the sources said.

http://www.hindu.com/thehindu/holnus/00 ... 101615.htm

yeah those muzzies thought why not reduce our own polulation and blow ourselves so they bombed the train and their mosque....lol

for ur info hindu was the paper which claimed some muslim terrorists burned the train carrying hindu pilgrims and their was a riot where many estimated 3000 muzzies died...then investigation found out accidental gas leak in kitchen!

what ever u say val it seems to me u r new to this argument .

bac to the topic , i have given my answer

valkyrie wrote:edit: Going back to the original topic, why can't a muslim woman marry a non muslim, but a muslim man can marry a non muslim woman?

a muslim man cannot just marry any non musilm woman. the woman has to be devout follower of the people of the book (christianity or judaisim -- which is how they are referred to in the quran)if the woman belongs to any other religion (hinduism, agnostic, buddhism and so on) he is not allowed to marry her.

i was told that the reason allah has made it acceptable for men to marry a non muslim woman (from the people of the book) is because originally, those two religions are similar to Islam, and if she is devout, she is following the basics of Islam as well. Also, because the children are more likely to follow the religion of the father rather than the mother.


and that is what i know, hope it helps.

bushra21 wrote:

valkyrie wrote:edit: Going back to the original topic, why can't a muslim woman marry a non muslim, but a muslim man can marry a non muslim woman?

a muslim man cannot just marry any non musilm woman. the woman has to be devout follower of the people of the book (christianity or judaisim -- which is how they are referred to in the quran)if the woman belongs to any other religion (hinduism, agnostic, buddhism and so on) he is not allowed to marry her.

i was told that the reason allah has made it acceptable for men to marry a non muslim woman (from the people of the book) is because originally, those two religions are similar to Islam, and if she is devout, she is following the basics of Islam as well. Also, because the children are more likely to follow the religion of the father rather than the mother.


and that is what i know, hope it helps.

you took the words right out of mouth bushra, thats what i was about to say

To answer your questions... My Palestinian Mother (a Muslim) and my British Fatehr (a Christian) got married 25 years ago.
My Dad converted to Islam because he loved my mum so much and realised that Islam actually made a lot of sense.

i know some else where that happened to the person, the father converted to islam to marry the mother

i would never want to change anybodies religion to marry me i believe in civil marriage and thats it , he can keep his religion and i keep mine ..No harm done and when the babies come they can choose their religion ... thats the way things should be ...

Corcovado wrote:i would never want to change anybodies religion to marry me i believe in civil marriage and thats it , he can keep his religion and i keep mine ..No harm done and when the babies come they can choose their religion ... thats the way things should be ...

I agree at 100%

just because things should be a certain way, doesnt mean they are.


i know im going to get much flack for saying this...but i agree with my religion when it says that i cannot marry someone out of my religion. it makes sense to me, and i dont see anything wrong with it.

People people people.. just go through the posts again.. and u can see how much religions have already costed us..

Any one.. just tell me.. is this the reason y religions where created..
Religions, let it be Islam, Christianity, Judaism, Budhism... they all were created to unite people..and look what has it done to us now.. just look at all of us.. think how much detest, how much trouble it has brought us(only if u think as i think, beyond the limits, limits and frames n rules set on to everyone of us from the day were born, through out these days of living) ..
If u look at any religion, apart from Ancient religions.. all of the new religions were brought to unite people.. under one roof, one faith .. and they served their purpose very well at that time.. all the religions did their job to the perfection in their geographical locations..

untill the world shrunk and people of different religions are mixed again..
now its getting back to the same old days of people fighting over religions.. imbalance in money, power etc... just think men.. dont u get the picture..y religions were formed.. this is the same reason y religions were formed.. have faith in God.. no one stops u... but its time for a new religion.. a new prophesy.. a new world religion.. a religion driven by peace ,compassion and respect.

?Men are u not ashamed to say hindu's were killed muslims were killed.. i'd say Human beings were killed and are getting killed everyday..we belong the same species.. . for god's sake stop this yelling on the name or religion.. i'm sorry that i posted this question.didnt think it would end up like this..


I'm always a believer and supporter of one religion i'd call that human..
never ever differentiate people..

As Muslims we have submitted ourselves to Allah, thus when Allah Ta'ala forbade marriages with disbelievers ,we have to obey, regardlesss of whether we understand it or not.

Belief in Allah is the very essence and pivot of the life of a Muslim,

In addition to this, bringing up the children according to Islam would be difficult if not impossible, as they would be confused when it comes to religion as there will be a huge difference between the religions of their parents.

I don't think religion is the sole cause of trouble and hate... I think if your a decent person you accept and respect another human beings choice. I have nothing against a regular Jewish person I meet...

In this day and age, I think greed is the main cause of hate and conflict.

Outside of marriage stuff, do arab girls get out with non-arab guys ?

i have friends that are not arabs... but for dating and what not, i tend to stick to my arab boys, its easier that way.

bushra21 wrote:

valkyrie wrote:edit: Going back to the original topic, why can't a muslim woman marry a non muslim, but a muslim man can marry a non muslim woman?

a muslim man cannot just marry any non musilm woman. the woman has to be devout follower of the people of the book (christianity or judaisim -- which is how they are referred to in the quran)if the woman belongs to any other religion (hinduism, agnostic, buddhism and so on) he is not allowed to marry her.

i was told that the reason allah has made it acceptable for men to marry a non muslim woman (from the people of the book) is because originally, those two religions are similar to Islam, and if she is devout, she is following the basics of Islam as well. Also, because the children are more likely to follow the religion of the father rather than the mother.


and that is what i know, hope it helps.

So why can a Muslim man marry a Jew, or Christian woman, but a Muslim woman can't marry a non Muslim man?

"if the woman belongs to any other religion (hinduism, agnostic, buddhism and so on) he is not allowed to marry her."

Religion is horrible

valkyrie wrote:

bushra21 wrote:

valkyrie wrote:edit: Going back to the original topic, why can't a muslim woman marry a non muslim, but a muslim man can marry a non muslim woman?

a muslim man cannot just marry any non musilm woman. the woman has to be devout follower of the people of the book (christianity or judaisim -- which is how they are referred to in the quran)if the woman belongs to any other religion (hinduism, agnostic, buddhism and so on) he is not allowed to marry her.

i was told that the reason allah has made it acceptable for men to marry a non muslim woman (from the people of the book) is because originally, those two religions are similar to Islam, and if she is devout, she is following the basics of Islam as well. Also, because the children are more likely to follow the religion of the father rather than the mother.


and that is what i know, hope it helps.

So why can a Muslim man marry a Jew, or Christian woman, but a Muslim woman can't marry a non Muslim man?

"if the woman belongs to any other religion (hinduism, agnostic, buddhism and so on) he is not allowed to marry her."

Religion is horrible

delicious isnt it?

valkyrie wrote:

bushra21 wrote:

valkyrie wrote:edit: Going back to the original topic, why can't a muslim woman marry a non muslim, but a muslim man can marry a non muslim woman?

a muslim man cannot just marry any non musilm woman. the woman has to be devout follower of the people of the book (christianity or judaisim -- which is how they are referred to in the quran)if the woman belongs to any other religion (hinduism, agnostic, buddhism and so on) he is not allowed to marry her.

i was told that the reason allah has made it acceptable for men to marry a non muslim woman (from the people of the book) is because originally, those two religions are similar to Islam, and if she is devout, she is following the basics of Islam as well. Also, because the children are more likely to follow the religion of the father rather than the mother.


and that is what i know, hope it helps.

So why can a Muslim man marry a Jew, or Christian woman, but a Muslim woman can't marry a non Muslim man?

"if the woman belongs to any other religion (hinduism, agnostic, buddhism and so on) he is not allowed to marry her."

Religion is horrible

well I guess answer was provided .... u call urself secular yet u jump and threathen other religions.....as long as they dotn afect u why give a damn? if a musl woman loves a man they will solve the problem among themselves.recently one of my jewsih freidn fell in lov with an arab lady but when he took her to his house, his mom vehemently opposed it and called her Gentile on her face. and they broke up after a month ...if their love would hve been strong they would have cut relations with their parents and done a civil marriage. It all depends on couple's choice

Well the argument is not really about religion but about power. Most religions are inert and benign. It's the control of the believers that causes most problems and issues.

Whilst these powers are self-elected and excersise control, in the name of God, without answering to the electorate whom they control then the prospect for peace are not good. Democracy is a threat to this control & power.

Most peaceful and prosperous nations separate mosque/church and state. Some had past civil wars to achieve this.

Democracy is a very poor form of government..but it's the best one we've got.

valkyrie wrote:

bushra21 wrote:

valkyrie wrote:edit: Going back to the original topic, why can't a muslim woman marry a non muslim, but a muslim man can marry a non muslim woman?

a muslim man cannot just marry any non musilm woman. the woman has to be devout follower of the people of the book (christianity or judaisim -- which is how they are referred to in the quran)if the woman belongs to any other religion (hinduism, agnostic, buddhism and so on) he is not allowed to marry her.

i was told that the reason allah has made it acceptable for men to marry a non muslim woman (from the people of the book) is because originally, those two religions are similar to Islam, and if she is devout, she is following the basics of Islam as well. Also, because the children are more likely to follow the religion of the father rather than the mother.


and that is what i know, hope it helps.

So why can a Muslim man marry a Jew, or Christian woman, but a Muslim woman can't marry a non Muslim man?

"if the woman belongs to any other religion (hinduism, agnostic, buddhism and so on) he is not allowed to marry her."

Religion is horrible

did you even read what i wrote...completely? the second paragraph explains why. if you had read it, you wouldnt ask that question.

and no, religion isnt horrible; its the people that are.

I must be blind, because you did not go further on to assert why a Muslim woman cannot marry a non Muslim man.


"i was told that the reason allah has made it acceptable for men to marry a non muslim woman (from the people of the book) is because originally, those two religions are similar to Islam, and if she is devout, she is following the basics of Islam as well. Also, because the children are more likely to follow the religion of the father rather than the mother."

valkyrie wrote:I must be blind, because you did not go further on to assert why a Muslim woman cannot marry a non Muslim man.


"i was told that the reason allah has made it acceptable for men to marry a non muslim woman (from the people of the book) is because originally, those two religions are similar to Islam, and if she is devout, she is following the basics of Islam as well. Also, because the children are more likely to follow the religion of the father rather than the mother."

how old are you....or do you have no common sense. if i said that the reason why it is ok for a muslim man to marry a woman who is from the people of the book because the children are more likely to follow the father's religion -- wouldnt it make sense that a muslim woman cannot marry a non muslim man because the children would be morelikely to follow the husbands religion, and not hers?

We all know that Muslim women have to follow very different rules than Muslim men. Some say it is still equality, while others would disagree...

bushra21 wrote:

valkyrie wrote:I must be blind, because you did not go further on to assert why a Muslim woman cannot marry a non Muslim man.


"i was told that the reason allah has made it acceptable for men to marry a non muslim woman (from the people of the book) is because originally, those two religions are similar to Islam, and if she is devout, she is following the basics of Islam as well. Also, because the children are more likely to follow the religion of the father rather than the mother."

how old are you....or do you have no common sense. if i said that the reason why it is ok for a muslim man to marry a woman who is from the people of the book because the children are more likely to follow the father's religion -- wouldnt it make sense that a muslim woman cannot marry a non muslim man because the children would be morelikely to follow the husbands religion, and not hers?

as I said common sense is not common these days........similar anology if it ringa bell val.....why is it women loose their maiden name after marriage? is she product or slave of man......cos old days slaves were named after their masters..same is the case here.....it has alwys been tradition that children always follow the father's religion...so women are prevented...... now please dont ask why did children follow dad's religion...

valkyrie wrote:

Bleakus wrote:

valkyrie wrote:"you can diss me but not my religion"

Why not? Muslims denigrate Judaism and Christianity. If I remember correctly the koran refers to Jews and Christians as apes and pigs. I won't tolerate intolerance, I'm as indignant of christian fascists who attack Homos.exuals as I am of Muslims.

So you spend your time find faults on all religions? If you disagree about a certain religion keep it to yourself? if you face people who are muslims that are constantly attacking...i mean day by day.....attacking other religions.....im not one of them? That does not give you the right to attack the quran and whats written in the quran, that includes muslims.

"you have a religion, and i have mine" lets keep it that way

News to me. Why can't a secular athiest criticize religion? If it offends your sensibilities then you should have criticized Islam before western athiests had to step in. My foremost concern is Christianity, and after that religion is destroyed than western athiests will turn their attention to the Muslim world. If there is anything left of Islam, western athiests will unite with our eastern athiest comrades and help dismantle the mysoginist, patriarchal religion of Islam.

edit: Going back to the original topic, why can't a muslim woman marry a non muslim, but a muslim man can marry a non muslim woman?

secular atheist.......criticize ....isnt it oxymoron word?